Koinon Hellenon's prospects

[Dutchhoplite]

Hmm, throwing around facts are we??

Fact is that that the Spartan "new model army" under Cleomenes III performed quite well. Fact is that is Macedonian/Allied army was extremely reluctant to attack the smaller Spartan army. Fact is that the rebellion in Argos forced the Spartan army to retreat and not the Macedonian army.

There are enough interesting "what ifs".

[Phalanx300]

Hmm, throwing around facts are we??

Fact is that that the Spartan "new model army" under Cleomenes III performed quite well. Fact is that is Macedonian/Allied army was extremely reluctant to attack the smaller Spartan army. Fact is that the rebellion in Argos forced the Spartan army to retreat and not the Macedonian army.

There are enough interesting "what ifs".

Yes, but before Cleomenes Sparta was basicly nothing. However by his reforms it became a power to watch out for once more.

And his point is that during/after EBs time frame its impossible that Sparta would become a big power again, thats ofcourse not true.

Basicly every city state, yet how weak can become a power, look at Rome, a city state, unlikely? Yes but it still became the biggest power. Carthage, a city state. And like that there are many more city states, they started out as a laughter however became some of the biggest powers ever.

[Ca Putt]

it may have been possible but highly unlikely. if one imagines most possible time strings during the EB time frame there would have been a very large number of strings without rome but still relatively few with Spartans rising above the other Poleis, very few.

Personally I gave up justifying a KH expansion , after i defeated Macedon. from what i read, they were not the people to do so. I've even read that some Historians think The Poleis was not realy a state. but a group of people that have enclosed themselves amung there fellow Hellens. take that aside, imo the most likely way the Hellenes could have rose to a vast empire from the Pillars of Hercules to Kolchis(or baktria^^) would be through first having to face a even bigger challenge than the war against the Persians(over a long period), which would have united them and after that they got some megalomanic Leader who 1. want's to unite ALL Hellens of the World(Massilia etc.) 2. got the taste of power and just could not stop conquering(I had to come up with this one once I crossed the alps :D)
to be honest it realy could fit on my current Faction leader who realy enjoys Looting, pillaging, ransacking, burning and Hellenising(of cource) Gaul with his Veterans :D
so to be frank I'm not behaving very Hellenic at all, but It's still a lot of fun and I am quite impressed by those who try to play their Campaign as Historical accurate as possible, but that's just not my way of playing History related Games, I rather change history than re-enact it.

[Dutchhoplite]

to be honest it realy could fit on my current Faction leader who realy enjoys Looting, pillaging, ransacking, burning and Hellenising(of cource) Gaul with his Veterans :D

Sounds like a great guy :D

[Ca Putt]

yeah, i like him :D. afaik he has got all traits which increace the looting output :D but he's 60 by now :(

[Phalanx300]

it may have been possible but highly unlikely.

Yes thats what I ment, said it a bit wrong, its unlikely but not impossible.

I've even read that some Historians think The Poleis was not realy a state. but a group of people that have enclosed themselves amung there fellow Hellens.

Well, I don't really think thats true, it could be said about all states, even todays ones.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

And what should keep the other Hellenes from just getting rid of the Spartans? Everytime the Spartan army would leave a newly conquered city, it would just revolt. The southern Greeks never felt any urge to unify Hellas under one polis. Conquer them, yes, make them do what they want, yes, forcing them into an "alliance", yes, but they never tried to make a homogenuous state out of Hellas.

Rome had a different approach. They started out very small, but they never ate too much at the same time. Babysteps approach basically. And during EB's starting time, Rome had already huge masses of manpower to command. The troops they could levy were more or less cheap and included all free men. The Spartans had a totally different approach. They wanted to make everyone slaves with a small elitist core of homoioi. Of course the Romans wanted to be the sole masters too but they never told the subjugated, that's the difference.

[Celtic_Punk]

You throw around "spartan empire" like i meant itd be purely spartan. If the KH actually won against Makedonia there would be Athens and Sparta as the most influential states. Perhaps Pella would weigh in somewhat but I don't think so due to years n years n years of war. Just like how everyone didn't (and some don't sadly) trust Germans till recently. Sparta probably would be commanding most of the battles, like in the past. Please don't get worked up just because a few guys think 700 men could kill tens of thousands because they saw 300. (terrain permitting, 700 men could in theory [without being flanked] kill as many as 20 thousand)

[Dutchhoplite]

How would a "Empire" consisting only of level IV governments work ???

Would it work??

Just thinking aloud ;)