Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Interesting stuff Sigurd, especially the idea of preordination.

One thing though. I know I said we make a decision/are judged before we are born, however I did not mean at the council of heaven, because I am not a Mormon.

Especially in the Psalms, most notably of David, it is mentioned several times that God sees into our hearts when He is fashioning our spirit before we are born into sin and the flesh.

[Sigurd]

One thing though. I know I said we make a decision/are judged before we are born, however I did not mean at the council of heaven, because I am not a Mormon.

You "said" (how I interpreted it) that mankind makes an active choice before coming into this world. I can't think of any other denomination that teaches this.

Hints at preordination is found several places in the Bible and not just Psalms.
Take Jeremiah for example:

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

(Jer 1:5)

Also, consider John the Baptist mentioned in Isaiah and then later in Luke when Zacharias was told that his unborn child should be named John and should prepare the way of the Lord.

There are other sources of literature that deals with this, but I doubt you would recognize non-canonical texts.

[Rhyfelwyr]

PVC, I will reply to your post later.

Sigurd, that is what I have come to believe, that God knows us before we are born, and not just through His foreknowledge. Maybe that is not strictly Calvinism - does that make me a heretic?

I will look into this further. This has been a really good discussion here folks, plenty of food for thought for myself.

Do you know any of the denominations that hold these views of preordination (specifically to salvation)?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You "said" (how I interpreted it) that mankind makes an active choice before coming into this world. I can't think of any other denomination that teaches this.

Hints at preordination is found several places in the Bible and not just Psalms.
Take Jeremiah for example:

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

(Jer 1:5)

Also, consider John the Baptist mentioned in Isaiah and then later in Luke when Zacharias was told that his unborn child should be named John and should prepare the way of the Lord.

There are other sources of literature that deals with this, but I doubt you would recognize non-canonical texts.

Feel free to hit me up with the non-Canonical texts any time.

As to preordination, a point of order: It always concerns prophets, and as Sigurd points out, God can make whatever he wants happen. Extrapolating the lives of the (almost universally) disobedient prophets to the general post-incarnation population of humanity is suspect.

As to John, there is some cause to think he might not have been admitted into heaven when you look at Jesus' words after he is taken into captivity.

[Sigurd]

Feel free to hit me up with the non-Canonical texts any time.

Hah.. I would have hoped any of you wanted to hear more of the immaterial God fallacy, but let's stick to the current topic about destiny vs. preordination.

But before I dive into the extra-canonical texts, let's make time for a little apropos.

If we should consider the Judeo - Christian tradition as the basis of the only true religion,the creation story and the prophets from Adam to John the Baptist and the Apostles are all truths and did happen.
If we should consider all that, we should also consider that which it teaches. God invites all to his kingdom and would have provided the means to do so for all mankind in any era.
If all mankind originates from Adam and again from Noah, we should find something that resembles God's gospel in the break off cultures from these men.
We should also expect a corruption of original doctrines and the introduction of new and false traditions. The Jewish history is full of it and that is why prophets were sent.
If God indeed loves all his children he would give them a chance and make sure a prophet was sent to teach his Gospel of faith, repentance and baptism.
These prophets would be recorded where they were accepted and maybe these records were conserved to be found at a later time.
My point is: look for similarities in ancient religious texts and you might just find a core that is collective for them all.
One of these cores are a council in heaven, a war in heaven, preordination, a plan for the souls, a creation of a place to home the souls temporarily and a savior and a rebel.

To the issue at hand:
I believe the doctrine of life before death was a common belief in Judaism and the early church.
If we delve into a few extra-canonical excerpts and look at what is written, this can't be mistaken.
Let's consider the big three: Enoch, Abraham and Moses.
All big prophets in the Judeo-Christian tradition. But the books I'll quote is not found in the canon.

This is taken from the Coptic Enoch and the apocryphon devoted to the Biblical Enoch, the man who was taken to heaven with his city of righteous people or Zion.

All the souls of men, whatever of them are not born, and their places, prepared for eternity. For all the souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.

(2. Enoch c23)

The apocalypse of Abraham taken apparently from papyri found with a sarcophagus.

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good and stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers: for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

(Book of Abraham c3)

The Testament of Moses also called the Assumption of Moses found in the Pseudepigrapha.

... Accordingly He designed and devised me, and He prepared me before the foundation of the world, that I should be the mediator of His covenant ...

(Assumption of Moses v1)


The Jewish religion mentions this pre-existence but I have no links or quotes other that from memory.
In the Bereshith Rabba it mentions God holding a council with the souls of the righteous before He creates the earth.
In the Talmud it mentions the 7th heaven where the unborn souls dwell, those who await to be put into bodies. And I distinctly remembers somewhere that the Messiah will not come until the last soul in heaven has been put into the world.

The extra-canonical texts speaks much of this theme, but only fragments remain in the canon.
As Rhyfelwyr noticed, the Bible gives hints to God knowing his children before they were born i.e receive a tabernacle of flesh.
Some He foreordain to carry out certain tasks, but they never execute these tasks until He intervenes. These prophets and formerly great spirits, experience things that put them into the knowing that God exists. Faith is obsolete, they now know.
I am not sure about Christ and John the Baptist, as nothing is written about their "awakening".

As to John, there is some cause to think he might not have been admitted into heaven when you look at Jesus' words after he is taken into captivity.

Which quote are you referring to?
I know of one instance the Christ spoke of John the baptist and that is the verses:

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

(Matt 11:11)

For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

(Luke 7:28)

The "least in the kingdom of heaven" is a known way of saying he was the servant of all. A humble man and willing to serve everyone.
Besides, it would be horrifying for the different Christian denominations that has named their churches after John the Baptist, to find out that John never went to heaven .

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not familliar with the texts you quoted but from the actual quotes it would seem that it only definately refers to particular prophets, not all humanity.

A quick google turns up a late date of 1stAD for 2 Enoch, but a much earlier date for 1 Enoch, while 3 Enoch seems even later (Medieval even).

Wiki article on Smith Book of Abraham, is this what you were refering to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_abraham

[Rhyfelwyr]

Always put the Bible first, if an ancient text isn't there then it's because God didn't want it to be. I looked up my idea on preordination, however it lacks any clear scriptural backing, and appears to refer to specific matters and not salvation, as PVC said.

Also, I've been looking up some past discussion I had on the topic of predestination. Without going into hyper-calvinism, I think that it is clear that God sends no person to Hell. However, what He does do is save people from Hell.

This is clear from the Psalms, one example being Psalm 65:

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

It is important that David acknoweldges that he is chosen, inferring that the alternative would be for him not to be chosen, rather than to be chosen for x fate. Which is why I do not believe the doctrine of double predestination. This theme is continued throughout the Bible, for example when it says "those whom He did predestine...".

Remember, if Jesus had not died on the cross, then we would all go to Hell. It is only because God suffered our punishment that we can ever be gifted His grace. God is just, the wages of all sin will be payed. However, He chose to take the punishment for some - therefore it is God Himself who has been the only one to suffer injustice.

For example, say there are two criminals on trial. Both are on trial for seperate murders, but face the same charges. One murderer is poor and has a rubbish lawyer. The other is a rich gangster, and has bribed the whole jury. So, the poor murderer goes to jail for life, while the rich gangster walks free. The rich gangster escaped justice, but does that make the fate of the poor man any less just? Should he be freed so he received equal punishment to the gangster?

The only difference with the scenario in salvation is that God took the sentence for the rich gangster (the elect), and He did it out of mercy. God was the only one to suffer from injustice, yet He chose to do it anyway.

With God having suffered as He did, should we now complain to Him, saying why did He not take everyone's punishment, why did He not suffer greater injustice for mankind's crimes?

It is important that the elect realise, that just as the rich gangster, they are really no better than the poor man that goes to jail.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Always put the Bible first, if an ancient text isn't there then it's because God didn't want it to be. I looked up my idea on preordination, however it lacks any clear scriptural backing, and appears to refer to specific matters and not salvation, as PVC said.

Your concept of the formation of the bible is extra-scriptual. The text itself does not support it, and neither do the historical accounts of its formation.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblica...ristian_canons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Councils_of_Carthage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Hippo

also, the Gospels clearly contradict in detail, examine the calling of the first four diciples in Mathew and John. Peter and his brother are the same but the other two are different, in Mathew Peter is litterally a fisherman, in John he is a diciple of John the Baptist.

Remember, if Jesus had not died on the cross, then we would all go to Hell. It is only because God suffered our punishment that we can ever be gifted His grace. God is just, the wages of all sin will be payed. However, He chose to take the punishment for some - therefore it is God Himself who has been the only one to suffer injustice.

For example, say there are two criminals on trial. Both are on trial for seperate murders, but face the same charges. One murderer is poor and has a rubbish lawyer. The other is a rich gangster, and has bribed the whole jury. So, the poor murderer goes to jail for life, while the rich gangster walks free. The rich gangster escaped justice, but does that make the fate of the poor man any less just? Should he be freed so he received equal punishment to the gangster?

The only difference with the scenario in salvation is that God took the sentence for the rich gangster (the elect), and He did it out of mercy. God was the only one to suffer from injustice, yet He chose to do it anyway.

With God having suffered as He did, should we now complain to Him, saying why did He not take everyone's punishment, why did He not suffer greater injustice for mankind's crimes?

It is important that the elect realise, that just as the rich gangster, they are really no better than the poor man that goes to jail.

So God is unjust?

[Sigurd]

Wiki article on Smith Book of Abraham, is this what you were refering to?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_abraham

Hmmm... not looking good for old Joe Smith there. I find the book of Abraham quite intriguing though.
In stead of the Smith book of Abraham, try the Apocalypse of Abraham found in the Pseudepigrapha. It deals with mostly the same issues and story.

Always put the Bible first, if an ancient text isn't there then it's because God didn't want it to be.

As Philipvs notes, you have a view that the Bible is perhaps infallible and believe that the canon is complete.

It is important that David acknowledges that he is chosen, inferring that the alternative would be for him not to be chosen, rather than to be chosen for x fate. Which is why I do not believe the doctrine of double predestination. This theme is continued throughout the Bible, for example when it says "those whom He did predestine...".

David might have been chosen and pre-ordained to his position as the line in which the Christ would come, but didn't he fall with the Uriah/Bathsheba issue and lost his salvation?