UNIONS: Good, Bad... which and why?

[Yoyoma1910]

What is your perspective?

That you like to see people fight, by giving them two extremes and no compromise.

[Strike For The South]

Generally Bad because they eventually become as bad as the men at the top. Not to mention the mafia like tactics used to keep members in line. As rule an employer should treat his employees with respect and pay them a wage tied into there skills. While I understand this doesnt always happen I find unions to be a worse option.

[Divinus Arma]

Generally Bad because they eventually become as bad as the men at the top. Not to mention the mafia like tactics used to keep members in line. As rule an employer should treat his employees with respect and pay them a wage tied into there skills. While I understand this doesnt always happen I find unions to be a worse option.

Respectfully, where did you get this information?

I am a member of a powerful union and our board is approachable and honest. They are regular employees and anybody can run for their position. I have met several of them while they ran for office and just while working. They do their duties uncompensated and are easily replaced should they act with dishonor.

[Strike For The South]

Respectfully, where did you get this information?

I am a member of a powerful union and our board is approachable and honest. They are regular employees and anybody can run for their position. I have met several of them while they ran for office and just while working. They do their duties uncompensated and are easily replaced should they act with dishonor.

I speak from doing some reading when I have time to and some stories from family, so not very good. I will cede you know more than me however I would also like to point out that you are in a firefighter union right? That is a little different than a union for a private company.

Teachers policeman and firefighters are little different than the autoworker or Wal-Mart butcher who didn't get and education and thought he would have a comfy factory job the rest of his life

I could be way off here but I come here to learn so enlighten me.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I wish they were more good than bad, but these days they are more bad than good. Maybe if things get crappy again they will serve a purpose.

[Divinus Arma]

I speak from doing some reading when I have time to and some stories from family, so not very good. I will cede you know more than me however I would also like to point out that you are in a firefighter union right? That is a little different than a union for a private company.

Teachers policeman and firefighters are little different than the autoworker or Wal-Mart butcher who didn't get and education and thought he would have a comfy factory job the rest of his life

I could be way off here but I come here to learn so enlighten me.

I respect your humility and integrity.

I haven't worked in a private union, but I have two friends who came from electricians unions. They spoke very highly of their experience and had no complaint. Formerly being a hard core Republican, I had my reservations. I will absolutely admit I was wrong about unions. They are essential to protecting workers from the power of management.

Unions are the only way for the workers to have a one-to-one exchange between managers and employees. Think about it from a manager's perspective: Your one and only duty, for which you are paid in bonuses if you are sucecssful, is to maximize shareholder wealth. Labor is a cost and every penny given to labor is a penny not given to the shareholder, the owner of the company and the grantor of your bonus. Whether that penny goes to pensions, health care, or salary matters not. It is a cost that must be reduced. With that said, not all labor is equal. While as a manager, I want to pay as little as possible, I understand that skills are an input to my business and I am a consumer of labor skills. Just as the consumer seeks value in products, so to does management want the most bang for his buck from labor inputs. Skills of value will be in shorter supply, and thus be more expensive. The impetus to reward strictly on merit is perfectly understandable.

This basic management perspective ignores two points: (1) The ethics of objectifying labor, and (2) the potential for forced intrapreneurialism.


Arguing point #2 is something that requires objective data to substantiate and I will not bother with that here.

Arguing point #1 is a little easier to chew on and digest. Objectifying labor is a managerial sin that fails to recognize the human toll of decision making. EDIT: Now look at it from a worker standpoint. You are 22 years old and just got out of the Army. You aren't quite sharp enough for college, and not ever really better than mediocre in school with low SATs. But you are good with your hands and you love working with machinery. You find a training school for heavy machinery and use your GI Bill to get through. Once finished, you find employment with a construction company, working a bulldozer. Thanks to your union, you make decent enough money to pay rent, buy a car, and be comfortable for your age. You look forward to staying with the company because you know you will get a small pension when you retire, you have fun driving your bulldozer in the bright blue sky outdoors, and you have good health insurance. You also know that you will get regular raises and that you can eventually buy a house and support a family. Life is pretty good. The union preserves living wages, healthcare, and a secure retirement. You can do your job and enjoy it because you don't have to stress out about cost-cutting layoffs or unfair treatment from a disrespectful arrogant boss.

[naut]

I have no idea about real Unions, so I can't really comment. There was a lot of hankering here about Unions and "work-choices" in the last election. Pretty funny though that now the government is going back on its promises to the Unions. And I actually never understood why the Unions complained so much, having read up on workchoices they weren't actually bad at all.

Student University Unions are rubbish though. Anything that costs me $200-$250 a year for no benefits or return is a waste, of, time. I'm just glad that it'll take a while for the legislation to make them compulsory again to pass.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I voted generally bad, though there's some cases where they do good.

In general, I say they are a temporary solution to a permanent problem. The vast majority of problems happened at the first part of last century.

I've certainly worked my share of crap jobs - on a berry farm with a bunch of migrant workers, making minimum wage in 80+ hour weeks with no overtime, and I've also worked as a laborer in a industrial painting company that used to be unionized and then became un-unionized.

And I still generally am against unions. They limit flexibility in business, by making job descriptions very strict, among a thousand other things. The more powerful the union, the worse it generally is.

I've worked in a large non-union refinery and from all that I hear the experience, for all employees, and especially the relationship between hourly and salaried types, is much better than in unionized refineries under the same company.

Unions are a symptom of poor management or aggressive unionizing attempts by faltering unions (the UAW is trying to unionize the graduate students and assorted folks at my university), so it seems better to me that you solve the underlying problem instead of boasting about a powerful union. It's like thinking that taking strong antibiotics is better than not having a disease in the first place.

CR

[Strike For The South]

Long post that makes me think

I can see what your saying and I guess you're right. In my ideal wrold common sense and dencency would rule over the willingness to make a buck but it doesn't seem that is so. I also agree that many good companies have unions and still remain in the black.

I'm going to have to mull this one over.

[Xiahou]

Thanks to your union, you make decent enough money to pay rent, buy a car, and be comfortable for your age. You look forward to staying with the company because you know you will get a small pension when you retire, you have fun driving your bulldozer in the bright blue sky outdoors, and you have good health insurance. You also know that you will get regular raises and that you can eventually buy a house and support a family. Life is pretty good. The union preserves living wages, healthcare, and a secure retirement. You can do your job and enjoy it because you don't have to stress out about cost-cutting layoffs or unfair treatment from a disrespectful arrogant boss.

None of this can happen without a union?

And I still generally am against unions. They limit flexibility in business, by making job descriptions very strict, among a thousand other things. The more powerful the union, the worse it generally is.

Don't forget how they can discourage exceptionalism. When your pay is determined solely by how long you've been around, there isn't much incentive to bother providing anything than the bare minimum. Such standards hurt the employer and also hurt the employees who are more talented or hard working than their peers. Unions are generally setup to discourage individual excellence and initiative.

[Yoyoma1910]

I've been a union employee in California, and I am from the state of Louisiana, which is a "right to work state." I believe that in some instances unions can be exceptionally beneficial, insure a reasonable wage, as well as standards that produce skilled workers and a quality work environment. But also, in other situations they can cripple an industry, and do quite the opposite of what they should.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I've been a union employee in California, and I am from the state of Louisiana, which is a "right to work state." I believe that in some instances unions can be exceptionally beneficial, insure a reasonable wage, as well as standards that produce skilled workers and a quality work environment. But also, in other situations they can cripple an industry, and do quite the opposite of what they should.

I would more or less agree with this, though I'm not entirely sure to what level they can cripple an industry and am unwilling to blame all of the auto-industry's woes on unions as they've been making horrible management level decisions for years now. To be clear I don't pretend to know your opinion on that Yoyoma. That was just my exhausted rambling.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

They can be good or bad, just like companies can be good or bad. I see it as a system of checks and balances.

[Yoyoma1910]

I would more or less agree with this, though I'm not entirely sure to what level they can cripple an industry and am unwilling to blame all of the auto-industry's woes on unions as they've been making horrible management level decisions for years now. To be clear I don't pretend to know your opinion on that Yoyoma. That was just my exhausted rambling.

The American auto industry is a mess all its own. Its blame lies in all involved in the industry, and their unwillingness to adjust to growing international competition and markets.

[Divinus Arma]

That you like to see people fight, by giving them two extremes and no compromise.

Please do not troll.

Banquo's Ghost delete this and his post and allow this thread to enjoy a fresh start. Thank you.