Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[Rhyfelwyr]

OK, but I didn't say I accepted a doctrine based on that. I can tell it wasn't from Satan though. Far out as this may seem to ordinary Orgahs reading this post, when Satan sends thoughts they are better described as 'fiery arrows', they literally last a moment and they strike you when you are a Christian in the early stages. The devil's vain attempts to put us off track I suppose. I thought it only happened to me, but then when I joined the Christian forums I use apparently everyone has the exact same thing!

Of course we will never understand the mind of God, but He gave us the scriptures so that we could do our best to interpret them and live by them. I think it's important that I get some understanding of the message of the Bible, so that I don't spread a false message to others. I think I will need to look into the epicurean paradox... what are your thoughts on that PVC (or anyone else)?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OK, but I didn't say I accepted a doctrine based on that. I can tell it wasn't from Satan though. Far out as this may seem to ordinary Orgahs reading this post, when Satan sends thoughts they are better described as 'fiery arrows', they literally last a moment and they strike you when you are a Christian in the early stages. The devil's vain attempts to put us off track I suppose. I thought it only happened to me, but then when I joined the Christian forums I use apparently everyone has the exact same thing!

Of course we will never understand the mind of God, but He gave us the scriptures so that we could do our best to interpret them and live by them. I think it's important that I get some understanding of the message of the Bible, so that I don't spread a false message to others. I think I will need to look into the epicurean paradox... what are your thoughts on that PVC (or anyone else)?

Epicurus is very simple.

Q: How can an all powerful and all loving God allow evil?

A1: He can't stop it, so he isn't all powerful, maybe he doesn't even exist.

A2: He chooses not to stop it, so he isn't all loving, so maybe he doesn't exist.

That's it.

Now, I hate to tell you this but your first paragraph is doctrinal again. It's based on Jesus' tempting in the wilderness. The problem though is that, as much as what you say might be true, that does not need to be the whole of the answer. There is a very long tradition of the Devil, or other demons, transfiguring themselves into angels of Light and decieving pious men (or women), prophecy, words of reasurence etc.

The line between mystic and heretic in the middle ages was a very fine one and whater you may have been told about old Catholicism (a lot of it isn't true, if your Church is anything like other Calvinistic ones) they took this issue very seriously, there is an abundance of literature on the subject.

You might want to start with the Cloud of Unkowing which is a meditative text but contains some chapters on false piety. some of it is nonsense, such as people with nervous twitches, or cracking joints, but a lot of what the author says about people burning with what they believe to be reightiour fire is worth thinking about.

In any case there are a lot of well documented cases of Churchmen who relate their own bizare experiences that have been variously interpreted as a supressed sex-drive or the works of demons. If you look at the early Church I don't think there are any grounds to think that a Baptised christin is inately protected, i.e. fenced off from, these sorts of experiences.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I get the impression you think my church gives some sort of hyper-Calvinist ant-Catholic Puritan fire and brimstone sermons. It's not like that, its all about getting along, John Knox would be spinning in his grave.

So do you not believe that God could be all powerful and all merciful? I was just thinking the other day that He would have to be all merciful to save even one soul. Which leaves the question over His power... that may be harder to answer, or at least explain why He allows evil to exist.

What you say about the devil is true I suppose. It just seems like an insult to God if I was to think He could be Satan in disguise.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

'God either wishes to take away evil, and is unable, or He is able and unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?'

The words of Epicurus in the 3rd century. I personally have not found an even halfway suitable refutation of this argument/paradox. The Free will argument limits his power in that God could create us to freely choose good over evil, and doesn't account for natural evils. Evil sevring a greater purpose makes no sense either. If God is all-merciful then he would spare us suffering. If He is all-good, then He would not create evil.

I feel that similarly, Justice, Love, Power and Mercy are incompatible, if you are indeed talking about them in absolutes. Perfect Justice would involve punishment, allowing for the existence of a place like hell. However Perfect Mercy would not allow for it, forcing God to absolve all people of their sins and allow them to ascend to heaven. Love and Justice are not totally contradictary, although there are some issues to work around. Or would you care to show me otherwise PVC?

With mysticism and heresy being similar, I was under the impression that heresy was essentially a warping of the church's take on Christianity. In other words someone offering their own interpretation on God and his words, without Church consent. A mystic then would be someone who was not accused of heresy by the church, presumably because their ideology did not conflict with the 'official' version.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

'God either wishes to take away evil, and is unable, or He is able and unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?'

The words of Epicurus in the 3rd century. I personally have not found an even halfway suitable refutation of this argument/paradox. The Free will argument limits his power in that God could create us to freely choose good over evil, and doesn't account for natural evils. Evil sevring a greater purpose makes no sense either. If God is all-merciful then he would spare us suffering. If He is all-good, then He would not create evil.

One possible refutatuion is that man's understanding of evil is faulty and that it exists only in the minds of men. This is most pertinant when considering natural evils, but it applies equally to Hitler and the Holocaust; the latter lead to modern notions of Human Rights and the UN as an international forum for dispute resolution.

I feel that similarly, Justice, Love, Power and Mercy are incompatible, if you are indeed talking about them in absolutes. Perfect Justice would involve punishment, allowing for the existence of a place like hell. However Perfect Mercy would not allow for it, forcing God to absolve all people of their sins and allow them to ascend to heaven. Love and Justice are not totally contradictary, although there are some issues to work around. Or would you care to show me otherwise PVC?

This is a paradox which has not been answered. One of the problems whith trying to answer it is that we do not know who is actually saved, another is that we do not actually see the hand of God. So, no I'm not going to refute the paradox here. However, I will reject any doctrine which creates such a paradox in itself. I believe Calvinism does just that.

With mysticism and heresy being similar, I was under the impression that heresy was essentially a warping of the church's take on Christianity. In other words someone offering their own interpretation on God and his words, without Church consent. A mystic then would be someone who was not accused of heresy by the church, presumably because their ideology did not conflict with the 'official' version.

Mystics have a direct line to God, and an individual interpretation, Heretics claim the same. There are examples of people burned as heretics who have since been restored to the Church. Joan of Arc is the most famous example.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I get the impression you think my church gives some sort of hyper-Calvinist ant-Catholic Puritan fire and brimstone sermons. It's not like that, its all about getting along, John Knox would be spinning in his grave.

No such thing as Hyper-Calvinism. It's a doctrine which contains election, and therefore contains God's damning of souls. A more fuzzy form of Calvinism can be achieved by limiting God's power. You've talked a lot about not believing in double pre-destination but, as I pointed out, this denies the binary of heaven-hell and God's all-powerful and irresitable nature which you proclaim.

As regards your Church, you have been taught that Roman Catholic Saints are somehow special in their relationship to God. This is anti-Roman Catholic invective (it's also anti-catholic, but that's another issue entirely). You've probably also been told that Roman priests are believed to have to some special power from God.

So do you not believe that God could be all powerful and all merciful? I was just thinking the other day that He would have to be all merciful to save even one soul. Which leaves the question over His power... that may be harder to answer, or at least explain why He allows evil to exist.

I would not be arguing with you if I did not believe he was all-powerful and all merciful. When I have time I'm going to write a tract on this and set out my objections systematically but if you look back over this thread you will see that I have ranged accross love, power, mercy and other elements of the Divine.

What you say about the devil is true I suppose. It just seems like an insult to God if I was to think He could be Satan in disguise.

You might think of it as an insult to God that you trust your own judgement so completely and are vain in your self assurence. (I must have read that somewhere, I don't write like that normally.)

Seriously though, if you're going to go in for the "fiery arrows" bit you need to take the "false angel" bit as well.

[Rhyfelwyr]

No such thing as Hyper-Calvinism. It's a doctrine which contains election, and therefore contains God's damning of souls. A more fuzzy form of Calvinism can be achieved by limiting God's power. You've talked a lot about not believing in double pre-destination but, as I pointed out, this denies the binary of heaven-hell and God's all-powerful and irresitable nature which you proclaim.

God never works in the lives of people to damn them, there's no need to, they'll do that themselves. He only ever works in people's lives to save them. Yes God created them, but it is purely the nature of their being that damns people, with no extra influence from God once they are created. Hyper-Calvinism suggests that there is, but this is incorrect.

As regards your Church, you have been taught that Roman Catholic Saints are somehow special in their relationship to God. This is anti-Roman Catholic invective (it's also anti-catholic, but that's another issue entirely). You've probably also been told that Roman priests are believed to have to some special power from God.

I'm pretty sure I didn't hear it at church, however no person/group of people on earth has the ability or right to say with absolute authority that any one person is in Heaven. And no I don't believe that anyone thinks priests are granted special powers from God, I've never heard anything on the matter. I would presume Catholics consider priests to be human just like the rest of us, and that the church hierarchy was mainly for practical rather than spiritual reasons. At least till you get to the top, then its dodgy.

I would not be arguing with you if I did not believe he was all-powerful and all merciful. When I have time I'm going to write a tract on this and set out my objections systematically but if you look back over this thread you will see that I have ranged accross love, power, mercy and other elements of the Divine.

I look forward to reading it, because it is a question I cannot answer myself.

You might think of it as an insult to God that you trust your own judgement so completely and are vain in your self assurence. (I must have read that somewhere, I don't write like that normally.)

Seriously though, if you're going to go in for the "fiery arrows" bit you need to take the "false angel" bit as well.

I thought that as well, that is would be wrong for me to be sure in anything that I felt. Human beings are completely inferior to the power of God and Satan, I know well that one could easily trick us into thinking he was the other. I just believe that when God gives us understanding, it lifts us to a level above doubt, when we know it cannot be Satan, because God lets us know. And I know it doesn't make sense when you look back reflecting on it (you think how can I have been sure it was God), but that is beause you're on a different level, its like you're looking straight across when what you just experienced was above you. You can never understand it except when you're there.

So I suppose I can never explain it properly.

[Ronin]

this thread is like a giant game of mad libs.

awesome!!!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

God never works in the lives of people to damn them, there's no need to, they'll do that themselves. He only ever works in people's lives to save them. Yes God created them, but it is purely the nature of their being that damns people, with no extra influence from God once they are created. Hyper-Calvinism suggests that there is, but this is incorrect.

It's a binary. If God does not save he damns. The arguement runs thus.

God is all powerful.

Only God has the power to save, this comes only from God, salvation is determined by him alone.

God saves some and not others, those he does not save are damned for all eternity.

As I said before, you said God's grace was irresistable. If that is so then only those he forsakes could possibly resist him.

His refusal to save would be an act of damnation under that system.

You also said it is people's own nature that damn them, but their nature is detemined ultimately by God.

You also say that he works in their lives to save them, without which they could not be saved (so you have previously written). So then how can people have free will? How can anyone be saved if they are not free to choose? Worse, how could adam have sinned and condemned humanity without free will.

Disobediance requires choice. Calvinism removes choice. In effect it removes sin.

I'm pretty sure I didn't hear it at church, however no person/group of people on earth has the ability or right to say with absolute authority that any one person is in Heaven. And no I don't believe that anyone thinks priests are granted special powers from God, I've never heard anything on the matter. I would presume Catholics consider priests to be human just like the rest of us, and that the church hierarchy was mainly for practical rather than spiritual reasons. At least till you get to the top, then its dodgy.

Maybe it's these Christian forums you use. A lot of the rhetoric you use is very much in the vein of the Evangelical Churches.

Link?

I thought that as well, that is would be wrong for me to be sure in anything that I felt. Human beings are completely inferior to the power of God and Satan, I know well that one could easily trick us into thinking he was the other. I just believe that when God gives us understanding, it lifts us to a level above doubt, when we know it cannot be Satan, because God lets us know. And I know it doesn't make sense when you look back reflecting on it (you think how can I have been sure it was God), but that is beause you're on a different level, its like you're looking straight across when what you just experienced was above you. You can never understand it except when you're there.

So I suppose I can never explain it properly.

Satan is pretty pathetic really. I've reffered to it before, but read the Book of Job (all of it) for a demonstration od just how powerless he ultimately is. Having said that, consider this:

If you had been decieved you would still have written the same passage as the one I am quoting. How do you know that the assurence you feel is not false pride?

Faith in God is not the same as faith in yourself.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's a binary. If God does not save he damns. The arguement runs thus.

God is all powerful.

Only God has the power to save, this comes only from God, salvation is determined by him alone.

God saves some and not others, those he does not save are damned for all eternity.

As I said before, you said God's grace was irresistable. If that is so then only those he forsakes could possibly resist him.

His refusal to save would be an act of damnation under that system.

You also said it is people's own nature that damn them, but their nature is detemined ultimately by God.

You also say that he works in their lives to save them, without which they could not be saved (so you have previously written). So then how can people have free will? How can anyone be saved if they are not free to choose? Worse, how could adam have sinned and condemned humanity without free will.

Disobediance requires choice. Calvinism removes choice. In effect it removes sin.

Yep, you're either a servant of God, or a slave to Satan. Of course I may well be wrong but that's what it seems like.

Maybe Adam was the only human to have free will - after the original sin everything that happens is the result of his sin, as humanity learns the consequences of rebellion against God. If you resist God, then you are vulnerable to whoever will enslave you.

Of course, we do not know why God created people who will be damned. However, the inevitability of events which arise as a result of the situation created by God do not equate to the predestination that Calvinist doctrine refers to. Calvinism only refers to one specific aspect of predestination - the certainty as shown throughout the Bible that God will not allow the elect to fail to come to salvation. The elect know that it is their purpose to come to salvation, but we do not know what the purpose of the others are - the Bible does not mention election to damnation as it does election to salvation, so we should consider why this is.

Maybe it's these Christian forums you use. A lot of the rhetoric you use is very much in the vein of the Evangelical Churches.

Link?

I'd rather keep the anonymity, however I will say that in a recent poll they held Arminianism received more votes than Calvinism when asked what the voter preferred.

Satan is pretty pathetic really. I've reffered to it before, but read the Book of Job (all of it) for a demonstration od just how powerless he ultimately is. Having said that, consider this:

If you had been decieved you would still have written the same passage as the one I am quoting. How do you know that the assurence you feel is not false pride?

Faith in God is not the same as faith in yourself.

It is a difficult issue, I know that. However, it seems that if God gives me understanding then it is well beyond anything my mind would be capable of itself. I don't see where pride in myself came into the equation though - if I've been tricked then its been out of my own stupidity and I've nothing to be proud about, if I've not then it came purely from God and so that's great - nowhere do I deserve any merit.

With a mind as small and powerless as my own, surely the only way I could tell between God and Satan is if God Himself gave me the necessary knowledge to know that? If it comes from God, to question it is to question God. How can I know it's from God? The only way is if He lets me know directly. Nowhere does my merit come into the equation.

Which ties into the larger idea of us being servants of God or slaves to Satan - so long as these greater powers are at work, how can we resist the one without shielding behind the other? Of course hiding behind Satan is foolish, since God will destroy him. Just not yet.

EDIT: Partly because of this thread, and also more generally, I decided earlier today that I would no longer think to much over the Calvinism/Arminianism/whatever denomination debate, and would instead focus on God Himself. So, I just hopped over to the forums, and the first topic, right at the top of the page, is on this precise topic! And I've never seen it come up before in my time there, is this coincidence... the answer is no because this kind of thing happens so often.