Northeastern North American Indian Warfare

[Oleander Ardens]

Well, the European powers are both the yardstick and the knit of E:TW. Others nations should be measured on how well they compare with European prowness. Thus I hope that CA will give us a realistic and enjoyable presentation and content of the other forces in the game, and will no try too hard to "balance" units and factions. If MTWII is the benchmark, than I fear more too powerful units with too high morale.

[Fisherking]

Well, the European powers are both the yardstick and the knit of E:TW. Others nations should be measured on how well they compare with European prowness. Thus I hope that CA will give us a realistic and enjoyable presentation and content of the other forces in the game, and will no try too hard to "balance" units and factions. If MTWII is the benchmark, than I fear more too powerful units with too high morale.

Yes a good yard stick that! The French were the great military power at the start and until the 1820s anyway.

Who won the French Iroquois War? Oh it was not the French!

How long did the Chickasaw fight the French and their allied tribes? More than 50 years, and they were still there when the French gave up West Florida.

What broke the power of the tribes was disease more than war, and that took about 300 years. So if they make them weaker than Europeans they had better have a good explanation!

[Oleander Ardens]

Yes a good yard stick that! The French were the great military power at the start and until the 1820s anyway.

Frankly you don't seem to understand why the European powers, especially the French and the English must be the yardstick. They fought on almost all terrain covered by ETW, making them by far the best reference for CA to hone the unit stats.

Who won the French Iroquois War? Oh it was not the French!

I wonder if you actually read about the various wars between the French and their Indian allies and the Iroquois and their European allies. It is certainly an interesting chapter, but which should be discussed with proper rigour in the monestary.

It should be noted that around 1645 the Iroquois with roughly 25000-30000 members (before assimilating thousends of Hurons) massively outnumbered the French, who could count on less than 3000. They were very well supplied with guns and organized. Therefor it was mostly battled out by Iroquios and French allies. The French hat not sufficient manpower to annihilate the Iroquois and the Iroquis could not defeat the outnumbered French. Around 1700 both sides decided to make peace because the English were dangerously expanding.

How long did the Chickasaw fight the French and their allied tribes? More than 50 years, and they were still there when the French gave up West Florida.

They were still there, because the posed hardly anymore a thread, after being hit by raids and blockades. Still it should be discussed at the monastery.

What broke the power of the tribes was disease more than war, and that took about 300 years. So if they make them weaker than Europeans they had better have a good explanation!

What exactly broke the power of the various tribes can better be discussed in the monastery. Diseases, the changing balance of manpower and superior organization doomed them. Once regular troops in good numbers appeared on the battlefields of Nothern America the military tide was turned and with some notable exceptions the European powers won encounter after encounter.

[Fisherking]

@ Oleander Ardens


I don’t disagree that England and France are De facto yardsticks of military power. What I am trying to say is that the Indian Tribes in North America should not be a speed bump to be rolled over at will. They were exhalent fighters who usual gave as good or better than they got.

The French Iroquois War was just an example. They pinned down the French and defeated their allies one at a time, pretty much emptying the Ohio valley of tribes and through them allowed the English to lay claim to the land which had been French. It was the Iroquois entering the war that brought and end to French Empire in North America. (why I want to see William Johnson in the game)

Much of the depth of this subject is lost because this is about how they should be portrayed in the game and not what ultimately happened well into the 19th century.

Within the game the Tribes should still be powerful at least in the beginning. They were the powers that allowed the Europeans to establish colonies and trade with them helped both parties, and to some extent allowed settlement to take place.

Disease and internal decent broke there power allowing European style armies to subdue them, that and important changes in the logistical infrastructure. Otherwise those armies couldn’t take the field.

Man for man they usually out fought the Europeans and only when they were vastly outnumbered and in decline were they finally defeated and subdued…and that with the aid of other tribes to scout for those European style armies.


Ultimately though, we have to see what they have come up with in February and either rejoice or complain.

[Oleander Ardens]

While I don't agree that the various tribes outfought Europeans man per man I sincerly hope that the Native Americans get the attention they deserve.

About the fighting prowness of the various units and men in the American theather:

1) Sweeping statements about it are impossible to sustain as the various combinations of external conditions and military factors are manifold. Ambushes and Raids, open battles, sieges, direct and indirect approaches suited the various organisations and members to a differnt degree. This qualities determine usually the strenght of units in an TW battlefield.

2) European forces excelled in open battles and direct sieges against fortified Indian settlements when they stayed put. Even the creative Iroquois prefered by far the indirect attacks, by isolating the forts and raiding the vicinity because European forts where a far thougher nut to crack than a fortified Indian settlement. Sadly this qualities don't shine as much on a TW battlefield.

3) Indians excelled in the petit guerre, ambushes and raids and some, as the Iroquois mastered the stealthy, long-ranged raid which great forces enabling them to threaten even large European settlements. Still their targets where by far and large other Indian Nations. However also European units proved adept at adopting classic skirmishing tactics to the American environment and greatly used ambushes and raids against opposing forces and settlements and forts.

4) The European powers, especially the French recognized the strategic and tactical advantages of Indian allies as the Indians did vice versa. Native tribes where quit lost without European support against Tribes with it. European forces without Indian scouting and support were much more suscitable to loss of supplies and ambushes.

Certainly it is an interesting topic and deserves a mod or a add-on if the implementation is not so good in the original ETW.