New factions?

[Viking_Wårlord]

Here you are, I've changed my signature...

[bovi]

Why isn't he a senior member yet? I have seen senior members with only around 2,000 posts.

What difference would it make? Seniority and the respect it entails is in the minds of the participants and earned by quality posts, a title means nothing.

I cannot so far send you books in romanian, they are at the national library, in romanian, I can only give you and the others that do this the titles and the authors.

Do so. You may also want to type in a translation of some passages that you think are particularly important in the matter, so that people who don't have the book can follow the discussion. For instance:

The ancient historian [name] wrote in his work [book name] that the Dacians eschewed skirmishers, stating that they had religious compunctions against killing at a distance. This is seen in the passage in the 6th chapter, which can be rendered as:
"The Dacian army assembled on the hill and surveyed the foreign invaders. The camp priest prayed to Zalmoxis that the enemy javelins would be sundered by lightning from the sky, so that the ungodly weapons would not spoil the upcoming battle."

You of course realize that this is completely made up. You can also see Cmaqc's posts in the Gaesatae thread on the EB1 forum for a very nice and orderly way to present evidence.

[Ludens]

Why isn't he a senior member yet? I have seen senior members with only around 2,000 posts.

Promotions are actually not determined by post count. Senior member is a special rank that is conferred to about 12 people every half year, generally for major contributions to the community.

Please tell me you arent considering leaving Syracuse or Pergamon out - their potential was incredible, even if not fully realised.
Illyria and Numidia would be a shame to waste too.

Pergamon, as stated before, will certainly be a faction. However, team members indicated that Syracuse most likely won't make it. The main problem is that there is barely any information on their military in the post-Alexandrian era. Also, chances are that Syracuse as a faction will end up being simply a speed bump on the way of Rome or Carthage. Archimedes notwithstanding, Syracuses glory days were well and truly over.

Incidentally, the main criteria for faction inclusion in EB are historicity and regional importance. Availability of information is important too, but enjoyability is not a criterion. Now matter how fun it might be, there won't be a Caledonian faction.

[Morte66]

enjoyability is not a criterion

This is a terrible shame.

[bovi]

EB has always been based on the assumption that a realistic and historical presentation is not a damper on playability, but rather increases it. That said, we will not add anything that might be "cool" or "fun" if it jars with these. Such as flaming pigs, for instance.

[Sir Edward]

As interesting as this discussion is I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

I'll contribute by trying to get the thread back on topic.

1. Pergamon -- preview already available.
2. Bosphorean Kingdom-- a hellenic faction with a nice variety of native scythians & thracians
3. Belgae-- already has a small entry in the EB website, where they state starting territories, would be in a position to disrupt gaul and sweboz expansions, along with through rebellions giving the casse someone to fight in britain.
4. Boii-- an eastern europe celt faction, in my opinion at this time was better organized politically then the alternative illyrians tribe, keeps rome from heading north east to quickly and Epirus focus on the Balkans. EB addded a unit or 2 specific for the Boii in the last update.
5. Arevaci-- celtiberians, highlights the diversity of peoples in the iberian peninsula, metal working, coin minting, urbanized into oppida, subjugated their neighbors, make & broke alliances, a diversity of weapons and fighting styles, led the resistance along with the Belli against the Romans.
6. Atropatene-- an ancient diadochi kingdom in Azerbaijan, I can't find to many records about them but they were independent of the Seleucids. I admit I don't know much about their fighting style but imagine it to be simiar to the Hai and the Seleucids. Would give armenia someone to compete against for control of Caucasus and another thorn in the side of the gray death or an ally/bufferstate against parthian western expansion.
7. Gandhara--Something needs to be done about India, the current system of reelling to parthian control gives disruptive results, akin to what happen with Arabian Peninsula in pre-Saba EB. To represent the Mauryan empire would be out of the question but it would be nice to have a Mauryan northwestern satrap faction in game, taxilla from what i've read was a provincial capital.
8. Massyli-- Numidians faction, guarantees Carthage will have to fight for dominance in North Africa.
9. Nabataea-- Northern Arabian kingdom, access to red sea and arab trade routes, ramained independent until conquest by Traijan, expanded territory north into jordan at cost of weaken Seleucids.
10. Empty-- this faction slot should remain open for scripting purposes.

[Irish]

I would also like to see the Bosporean Kingdom, the Atropatene, and the Numidians. There should be enough information on all of these to make a unit roster... I'll do some research.

[Majd il-Romani]

As interesting as this discussion is I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

I'll contribute by trying to get the thread back on topic.

1. Pergamon -- preview already available.
2. Bosphorean Kingdom-- a hellenic faction with a nice variety of native scythians & thracians
3. Belgae-- already has a small entry in the EB website, where they state starting territories, would be in a position to disrupt gaul and sweboz expansions, along with through rebellions giving the casse someone to fight in britain.
4. Boii-- an eastern europe celt faction, in my opinion at this time was better organized politically then the alternative illyrians tribe, keeps rome from heading north east to quickly and Epirus focus on the Balkans. EB addded a unit or 2 specific for the Boii in the last update.
5. Arevaci-- celtiberians, highlights the diversity of peoples in the iberian peninsula, metal working, coin minting, urbanized into oppida, subjugated their neighbors, make & broke alliances, a diversity of weapons and fighting styles, led the resistance along with the Belli against the Romans.
6. Atropatene-- an ancient diadochi kingdom in Azerbaijan, I can't find to many records about them but they were independent of the Seleucids. I admit I don't know much about their fighting style but imagine it to be simiar to the Hai and the Seleucids. Would give armenia someone to compete against for control of Caucasus and another thorn in the side of the gray death or an ally/bufferstate against parthian western expansion.
7. Gandhara--Something needs to be done about India, the current system of reelling to parthian control gives disruptive results, akin to what happen with Arabian Peninsula in pre-Saba EB. To represent the Mauryan empire would be out of the question but it would be nice to have a Mauryan northwestern satrap faction in game, taxilla from what i've read was a provincial capital.
8. Massyli-- Numidians faction, guarantees Carthage will have to fight for dominance in North Africa.
9. Nabataea-- Northern Arabian kingdom, access to red sea and arab trade routes, ramained independent until conquest by Traijan, expanded territory north into jordan at cost of weaken Seleucids.
10. Empty-- this faction slot should remain open for scripting purposes.

I agree with all (especially Gandhara. I WANT INDIA!) except for #6 and #10. THere are enough Diadochi kingdoms already how about the 2nd numidian kingdom?
And for 10, We shuld have either the Skythian remnants or another Germanic tribe

[Sir Edward]

I agree with all (especially Gandhara. I WANT INDIA!) except for #6 and #10. THere are enough Diadochi kingdoms already how about the 2nd numidian kingdom?
And for 10, We shuld have either the Skythian remnants or another Germanic tribe

Atropatene was the weakest canidate I put up, I was considering in its place Iberia (East not West). I decided not to include a second numidian kingdom since unique gameplay is a consideration of EB when deciding factions. But the representation of Gaul shows this may indeed be the path EB chooses to take. As for skythian and germanic tribes there aren't too many good options at the start of this time period. One option would be the cimbri but they would not have much room for expansion. The Bastarnae may be another quality choice, not sure how much archaelogical finds have been identified with this group.

[General Appo]

The Bastarnae are really growing on me as a choice for EB2 faction, especially after reading all the rather new findings and reports that indicates that the Bastarnae were quite a lot more important than previously believed to be. Plus, they´ve already got a clear starting province, good expansion room (both gameplay and historically) and wouldn´t need a lot of new units.

[Ludens]

The Bastarnae are really growing on me as a choice for EB2 faction, especially after reading all the rather new findings and reports that indicates that the Bastarnae were quite a lot more important than previously believed to be. Plus, they´ve already got a clear starting province, good expansion room (both gameplay and historically) and wouldn´t need a lot of new units.

Sounds interesting. Could you provide a link to the news items about these finds?

[Dumbass]

Massalia really appeals to me - Civilised faction surrounded by "barbarians". They have an interesting starting position and can expand where ever they want.

[burn_again]

I think Massalia would be a bad choice. They didn't expand much historically and gameplay-wise it would be rather strange if you had to fight a strong greek faction in southern Gaul.

[Styles]

If the Bastarnae are included the Skirii should be part of the faction. They lived in Mazuria at that time.

The Cimbrii/Teutons/Ambrones would make another great faction but they are a bit too close to the Suebi.

[Puupertti Ruma]

I think Massalia would be a bad choice. They didn't expand much historically and gameplay-wise it would be rather strange if you had to fight a strong greek faction in southern Gaul.

Well, gameplay-wise I'dd see fighting a strong greek faction in a region containing only gauls, a very fresh and fun, and showing the diversity of ancient world in a great way. Same reasoning applies to having the Galatians as a faction. There you would have celts to fight in a region full of greeks. And besides, Galatia/Massalia have celtic/hellenic units, whether they are a faction or not.

[General Appo]

Well...the EB Team would have to be very careful to avoid something as extremely unhistorical as Massalia conquering all of Gaul which I fear is what a strong Greek faction in the south of Gaul would do. Nor can they be allowed to be wiped out after 10 years which is another very likely event.
If the EB team could get them to concentrate on just sticking to the coast then maybe it could work, but to be honest I feel that Massalia is the sort of city-state better represented as Eleutheroi, since they during EB´s timeframe never really tried nor could expand.
At most like a few regions west down the coast from Massalia, and even that was never really close to happening during EB´s timeframe. Had the game been set a hundred years earlier or more, then absolutely, Massalia would almost be a must, but now I think they´re better left out. Unless of course the EB team has some amazing plan for it.

Pergamon on the other hand, they certainly tried, could and did expanded a lot.

[Skullheadhq]

Perhaps Teutons and Cimbri as a coalition to outbalance the SweBoz.
Only problem is that they where an people on the move. But they originally came from Jutland.

[Styles]

Same for the Suebi but at the time EBII starts they may have been still in Juteland.

[Ludens]

Same for the Suebi but at the time EBII starts they may have been still in Juteland.

Suebi = Sweboz.

[Cartaphilus]

When do you announce another faction?
It could be a great Christmas present for the fans.

[Styles]

Yes I know Ludens.

the Cimbrii/Teutons/Ambrones could have been still in Juteland in 275 and not all of them left. They arrived at the alps in 113 BC thats a lot of time to reach the south and the Suebi/Suevi arrived in Gallia 71 BC so same could be said about them regarding the "wandering tribe"

[burn_again]

Well...the EB Team would have to be very careful to avoid something as extremely unhistorical as Massalia conquering all of Gaul which I fear is what a strong Greek faction in the south of Gaul would do. Nor can they be allowed to be wiped out after 10 years which is another very likely event.
If the EB team could get them to concentrate on just sticking to the coast then maybe it could work, but to be honest I feel that Massalia is the sort of city-state better represented as Eleutheroi, since they during EB´s timeframe never really tried nor could expand.

Exactly.
A while ago I played a mod of Europa Universalis 2 set in the EB time frame, which had Massalia as a faction. They were pretty strong and dominated Gaul which was pretty annoying (and completely ahistorical) if you played as Gauls or Romans.
The Galatians would be a different thing, they were pretty agressive and had a lot of impact in Asia Minor, while Massalia had more a cultural impact on the gaulic inland, not a military one.

[Ludens]

the Cimbrii/Teutons/Ambrones could have been still in Juteland in 275 and not all of them left. They arrived at the alps in 113 BC thats a lot of time to reach the south and the Suebi/Suevi arrived in Gallia 71 BC so same could be said about them regarding the "wandering tribe"

Wasn't that just a mercenary army? Because IIRC the Marcomanni (who were part of the Suebi confederacy) were still in Germany and a later point and considered to be even more of a threat than the Arminius and his Cherusi.

I think the problem with the Cimbri and even more the Teutons is that so little is known about them. Since they were on the move, they must have been driven out, which implies that they weren't powerful. Yes, they gave the Romans a scare, but this was probably due to sheer numbers and Roman incompetence rather than the Cimbri being inherently powerful.

[Styles]

Ariovistus was a leader of the Suebi and other allied Germanic peoples in the second quarter of the 1st century BC. He and his followers took part in a war in Gaul, assisting the Arverni and Sequani to defeat their rivals the Aedui, and settled in large numbers in conquered Gallic territory in the Alsace region, but were defeated in the Battle of Vosges and driven back over the Rhine in 58 BC by Julius Caesar.


"Some time before 100 BC many of the Cimbri, as well as the Teutones and Ambrones migrated south-east. After several unsuccessful battles with the Boii and other Celtic tribes, they appeared ca 113 BC in Noricum, where they invaded the lands of one of Rome's allies, the Taurisci."


According to the Res gestae (ch. 26) of Augustus, the Cimbri were still found in the area around the turn of the Common Era:

“ My fleet sailed from the mouth of the Rhine eastward as far as the lands of the Cimbri, to which, up to that time, no Roman had ever penetrated either by land or by sea, and the Cimbri and Charydes and Semnones and other peoples of the Germans of that same region through their envoys sought my friendship and that of the Roman people. ”

The contemporary Greek geographer Strabo testifies that the Cimbri still existed as a Germanic tribe, presumably in the "Cimbric peninsula" (since they are said to live by the North Sea and to have paid tribute to Augustus):

“ As for the Cimbri, some things that are told about them are incorrect and others are extremely improbable. For instance, one could not accept such a reason for their having become a wandering and piratical folk as this that while they were dwelling on a Peninsula they were driven out of their habitations by a great flood-tide; for in fact they still hold the country which they held in earlier times; and they sent as a present to Augustus the most sacred kettle in their country, with a plea for his friendship and for an amnesty of their earlier offences, and when their petition was granted they set sail for home; and it is ridiculous to suppose that they departed from their homes because they were incensed on account of a phenomenon that is natural and eternal, occurring twice every day. And the assertion that an excessive flood-tide once occurred looks like a fabrication, for when the ocean is affected in this way it is subject to increases and diminutions, but these are regulated and periodical. "

[Yyrkoon]

What about Axum? You know, Ethiopia. There was an expansionist empire from about the 4th century BC as far as I know. It would slow the yellow death.

[Sir Edward]

What about Axum? You know, Ethiopia. There was an expansionist empire from about the 4th century BC as far as I know. It would slow the yellow death.

please read this thread axum/ethiopia/nubia have been discussed to death & why they won't be a faction in EBII

[Jolt]

What about Axum? You know, Ethiopia. There was an expansionist empire from about the 4th century BC as far as I know. It would slow the yellow death.

I also supported that idea, but apparently it has been discarded since the quality of the Unit Rooster for such a faction would be extremely bad in comparison with the Ptolemies, and thus prone to getting crushed by the Ptolemies every time.

[Hax]

Yup. It would be mostly tribal African warriors with sticks and some swords, though if they could get access to Red Sea Hoplites, it would be very yummy. However, it wouldn't work anyway. The only room for expansion would be north, and to attack the Ptolemies turn 1 would be..suicidal.

[MeinPanzer]

Yup. It would be mostly tribal African warriors with sticks and some swords,

Hardly. They would have about as diverse a roster as the Saba, and though they definitely wouldn't be a major opponent for the Ptolemies, I think that if they were properly implemented, and the Ptolemies properly balanced, they would be able to hold them off.

[oudysseos]

As, of course, they more or less did in real life.