terror on the rise?

[KarlXII]

THAT is why the BJP is gaining support and has already (after the terrorist attacks this weekend) started to turn more support in five Indian states.

Probably because they're striking fear into the hearts and minds of the average Indian. I' having to agree with Fizzil, it seems the BNP (Err...sorry, BJP) is nothing more than a right winged nationalistic party.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

First off: The BJP takes extreme measures and is often NOT scrupulous dealing with Islamic groups, but saying they are trying to convert everyone is idiotic considering conversion to Hinduism isn't really "allowed".

Second off: I'm not saying anything is right or wrong in terms of the Kashmir conflict. I have my personal opinions (and if they showed it was not my intention). My intention was to show it is still a religious conflict despite what you may think.

Now begins putting words in my mouth... I never once said that all Muslims were terrorists or anything remotely similar. In fact there are around 200 million Muslims that live in India, and the majority of them live quite peacefully. Hell, during the terrorist attacks this past weekend we had Hindu, Sikh, and Islamic troops combat terrorists. They are no less Indians than Hindus.

Leet: Your exaggerations about the BJP aren't going to get you anywhere. First of all, it's led by Rajnath Singh, who is a Sikh. And yes, the BJP finally protects the rights of Hindus. Muslims have been destroying Hindu temples for hundreds of years (and that gives no right to destroy theirs) and WE deserve to have OUR religion respected. That isn't to say their tactics are right, though...

EDIT: http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm - Read it. "The BJP has also invited Muslims to be a part of this new society and work with the Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs for a better India"

"We must look after the Muslims and treat them as part of us"

[GoreBag]

The loony bun is fine.

[Leet Eriksson]

You might as well tell me to go fact finding about hizbullah on their own website.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811u/mumbai

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Heavily armed, hooded gunmen have killed more than 100 people and wounded more than 300 in Mumbai in coordinated attacks against two five-star hotels, the city’s largest train station, a movie theater, a hospital, and a Jewish center. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said in a televised address that the attackers had “external linkages,” an indication that Pakistan and perhaps al-Qaeda, too, would be blamed for the attack. It is clearly possible that the terror rampage had its origins outside India, aimed as they were at international rather than Hindu targets. But in a least one sense it doesn’t matter. For the attacks will aggravate a growing fault line between Hindus and Muslims within India itself.

India is home to 154 million Muslims, the third largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia and Pakistan. Tolerable inter-communal relations are the sine qua non of Indian stability and ascendancy. India has more to lose from extremist Islam than arguably any other country in the world. The Mumbai terrorists announced themselves as the Deccan Mujahideen. The Deccan is a rugged plateau region in south-central India that Aurangzeb, the fierce Sunni emperor of the Mughals (India’s most historically significant Muslim dynasty) could never subdue and in fact died trying in 1707. The Islamic Mughals vanquished all of northern India, Pakistan, and a good part of Afghanistan, but they could never consolidate the Deccan against the Hindu Maratha warriors. This Mughal history has taken on heightened symbolism in India in recent years precisely as a result of globalization and the expansion of electronic communications and education, all of which have sharpened the country’s religious divide.

Let me explain.

In the early Cold War decades, India’s ruling Congress Party, the party of independence, sought to unite both Hindus and Muslims under the umbrella of a shared community and new nation-state. It worked, more or less, until the 1970s, when Prime Minister Indira Gandhi enacted dictatorial emergency decrees that erased much of the romantic sheen from Congress’s image. New imagined communities then started to form. In the 1980s, and particularly in the 1990s, with the opening up of the Indian economy to the outside world, Indians, especially the new Hindu middle class, began a search for roots to anchor them inside an insipid world civilization that they were joining as a result of their new economic status. This enhanced status, by the way, gave them new insecurities, as they suddenly had wealth to protect.

Consequently, we had the rise of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (Indian People’s Party, or BJP). The BJP is one of several Hindu nationalist organizations that promotes a revisionist view of Indian history, in which the Mughals and other Muslim dynasties of the medieval and early modern era (which helped create India’s dazzlingly syncretic civilization - but who also brought terrible depredations upon the Hindus) are considered interlopers in what should have remained a purely Hindu civilization and story-line. Mass communications have helped Hindus in this historical journey, enabling the creation of a standardized and ideologized Hinduism out of many local variants. It goes without saying that a similar process simultaneously occurred within parts of the Indian Muslim community, who joined a world Muslim civilization that competed with Indian nationalism for their loyalty. Bottom line: this is not an ancient historical divide so much as a recreated modern one.

The divide exploded in full force in February and March 2002 in the northwestern province of Gujarat. Following the massacre of 58 Hindus on a train, Muslim areas of Gujarat, and particularly neighborhoods in its largest cities, were besieged by Hindu mobs: hundreds of Muslim women were raped, more than a thousand were killed, and 200,000 were made homeless. The Hindu nationalist BJP government in Gujarat was implicated in the killings, and because there was never an official apology for what happened, the atrocities have lived on in infamy, becoming a symbol for both groups in India.

With this background – and I have provided only the most rudimentary chronicle – the immediate result of the Mumbai terror attacks will be a further hardening of inter-communal relations within India. The latest attacks will also increase the likelihood that in national elections slated for early 2009, the result will be a BJP-led government, as Hindus, who comprise the overwhelming majority of Indian voters, take on another layer of insecurity.

Internationally, this event will further aggravate Indian-Pakistani relations, making it harder for the incoming Obama Administration to effect a rapprochement between the two countries, necessary for progress in Afghanistan, where the two subcontinental states are engaged in a proxy struggle that goes on behind the immediate conflict between the United States and al-Qaeda.

But the real story is India itself, whose undeniable rise as a major world power is being threatened by these civilizational tensions.

I have just spent a month reporting in Gujarat on Hindu-Muslim relations, and will have much more to say on the subject in the future.

Bolded relevant lines cause thats what it really is all about, socio-political problems based on artificial and bunk historical beliefs and ideologies, you really can't get worse than this as far as the incompetence of the indian government.

[KarlXII]

Weren't they involved the the destruction of a Mosque a while back?

[Leet Eriksson]

Weren't they involved the the destruction of a Mosque a while back?

No, it was done by a mob of hindu nationalists. Though this is what sparked the divide between hindus and muslims generally.

EDIT: The bjp congratulated them later though.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Weren't they involved the the destruction of a Mosque a while back?

Yeah it was in 1992. Caused some nasty riots. Sad thing, and stupid to do.

[KarlXII]

Yeah it was in 1992. Caused some nasty riots. Sad thing, and stupid to do.

And they're talking about acceptance

[Alexanderofmacedon]

And they're talking about acceptance

Most parties are like that. Most politicians, actually. Some systems that's how you get things done though. A shame really.

[KarlXII]

Most parties are like that. Most politicians, actually. Some systems that's how you get things done though. A shame really.

What?

Oh, and get this, after tearing down a Muslim Mosque, they built the Ram Janmabhoomi temple it just keeps getting better.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Ignoring the fact that this happened what, almost seventeen years ago?

[Fragony]

Personally I am still angry because they made a mosque out of the Hagia Sophia.

[Husar]

Personally I am still angry because they made a mosque out of the Hagia Sophia.

Let's assault a city and make them pay!

[Hooahguy]

someone sent me this article:

A Day of Mourning
Naomi Ragen

After days of prayer and fear among Jews and good people everywhere, the
horrible reality of the Islamic terrorist rampage in Mumbai was revealed in all its obscene and mindless savagery when members of Zaka entered the Chabad compound. As an eyewitness told YNET, the sight was unbearable even to the practiced eyes of those whose job it is to deal with the aftermath of murderous terror attacks:|"The place was totally destroyed. Live grenades were all over the floor. Torah scrolls and holy books were scattered on the floor, covered with blood." The bodies of the Chabad rabbi and the kashrut supervisor were found in one room, along with two other men whose hands had been tied with telephone wire. The body of the Rabbi's young wife Rivkie was found covered in a tallit. It is believed she was killed before her young husband's eyes and he wrapped her in his tallit. A grandmother from Israel, and a Jewish woman tourist from Mexico were also identified. For photos you will not see in the New York Times of the blood-soaked floor of the house of prayer and hospitality, courtesy of the "religion of peace" whose riots kill hundreds when a Koran is desecrated, please go to:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3630586,00.html

Police in Mumbai report that they found enough ammunition to blow up both
hotels and to kill thousands, which according to a terrorist captured alive,
was the intention. This carefully planned attack, which had the Chabad
House at its center, was orchestrated from Pakistan. Vilasrao Deshmukh, the
Chief Minister of Maharashtra state, of which Bombay is the capital, was
quoted yesterday as saying there were two "British-born Pakistanis" among
the terrorists, reports he later denied. A British Pakistani was involved
in a terror attack in Israel at Mike's Place not long ago. The Mail Online
reports "a banned Islamic terrorist group funded with cash raised in British
mosques is believed to be behind the Mumbai attacks." The Mail reports: "The
only terrorist captured alive after the Mumbai massacre has given police the
first full account of the extraordinary events that led to it - revealing he
was ordered to 'kill until the last breath' Azam Amir Kasab, 21, from
Pakistan, said the attacks were meticulously planned six months ago and were intended to kill 5,000 people. He revealed that the ten terrorists, who were highly trained in marine assault and crept into the city by boat, had
planned to blow up the Taj Mahal Palace hotel after first executing British
and American tourists and then taking hostages."

These descriptions brought back flashbacks to me of the Park Hotel which was
rocked by a murderous explosion by Hamas terrorists right before the Seder
began. Perhaps it is impossible for the average human being to understand
the depth of evil represented by Muslim extremists and their supporters if
you didn't witness such a thing. I deal with this in my book, The Covenant.
But I feel that I am whistling in the wind. People who have not seen this
with their own eyes just refuse to understand that these are not people with
grievances, people who can be reasoned with. These people are Nazis. Only
if you think you can speak to a Nazi and convince him to not wish to kill
Jews, can such a stand make sense.

No one should negotiate with any person, government official, religious
leader, or member of any group that does not condemn and despise and
excoriate these terrorists. No respect should be given to any religion, or
member of that religion, or religious leader who does not despise and
condemn these acts. When one views the bloody floor of Chabad House, one
sees the bloodied face of civilization. Those who are not prepared to
exterminate this evil, and those who are involved in it, are part of it.

Eyewitness Jonathan Ehrlich, a businessman who narrowly escaped death in
Mumbai,
sent out an e-mail of his experiences. In conclusion, he writes this:

The people who did this have no souls. They have no hearts. They are
simply
the living manifestation of evil and they only know killing and murder.
We - all of us - need to understand that. Their target tonight was
first and foremost Americans. Why? Because they fear everything that
America stands for. They fear hope and change and freedom and peace.
Let's make no mistake; they would have shot me and my children point
blank tonight without a moment's hesitation. Most of us sorta know
that but sometimes we equivocate. We can't equivocate. Not ever.

i suppose this accurately represents what most jews are feeling right now....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Targeting the Chabad center, to my mind, undercuts any "Freedom for Kashmir" component to the motivations for this sick episode. I think it is pretty clear that, whatever you believe regarding the Israel/Palestine dispute, the Jewish center in Mumbai cannot have figured prominently in the dispute over Kashmir. That it was targeted does not speak well of this group of Islamists.

[LeftEyeNine]

Personally I am still angry because they made a mosque out of the Hagia Sophia.

It's still beautiful and in solid condition, Frag. Chillax.

Personally I don't give a single **** (I have millions when some debate turns such corners) to what Christians did to Umayyad buildings although they were mostly razed down.

We should learn to get along with what we still have while destruction is so easy to commit.

Ur dearest,

XXX,

LEN

[Devastatin Dave]

Did someone draw a mean cartoon of Muhammed again? Jeez, these people are something else...

[Husar]

Did someone draw a mean cartoon of Muhammed again? Jeez, these people are something else...

No, they're a lot like you actually.

[Fragony]

It's still beautiful and in solid condition, Frag. Chillax.

Personally I don't give a single **** (I have millions when some debate turns such corners) to what Christians did to Umayyad buildings although they were mostly razed down.

We should learn to get along with what we still have while destruction is so easy to commit.

Ur dearest,

XXX,

LEN

I was kinda joking mia muca

forever yours,

Frag

[Devastatin Dave]

No, they're a lot like you actually.

How's that? I've yet to kill anyone in the name of a god. PLease elaberate so I can understand your insulting insinuation...

[Husar]

How's that? I've yet to kill anyone in the name of a god. PLease elaberate so I can understand your insulting insinuation...

Well, first off we're all humans, your comment about them being something else sounded rather insulting to me (not like I was insulted myself).
And then they seem rather intolerant and do not discriminate between guilty or not, they just fight against "the others" in general, which is why they attack women and children etc., something you seem to show as well. Didn't want to say you're a terrorist, apart from the above I think you're a nice guy while they are murderers.

[Devastatin Dave]

Well, first off we're all humans, your comment about them being something else sounded rather insulting to me (not like I was insulted myself).
And then they seem rather intolerant and do not discriminate between guilty or not, they just fight against "the others" in general, which is why they attack women and children etc., something you seem to show as well. Didn't want to say you're a terrorist, apart from the above I think you're a nice guy while they are murderers.

With all due respect, I have nothing in common with THESE PEOPLE. THESE PEOPLE killed hundreds of innocent people all in the name of a religion. They targeted certain groups of people. So that is why I'm having a hard time understanding what was so insulting by me saying "Jeez, these people are something else..." that it would prompt you into morally equaling me to a bunch of murdering bastards. I've known you for years Husar and you are better than this. I may not be but I know you are. Don't dishonor yourself my friend by defending the guilty with blood on their hands.

But anyway, this is just one more reason why we will witness our own extinction or enslavement by the Islamic "religion" if we continue to bury our heads in the sand of political correctness and not call the guilty what they really are. The goal of true Islam is not to live side by side as equals with other faiths or complete unbelievers. The silent MAJORITY of muslims that are peaceful cannot hold back the MINORITY of violent ones that are doing the killing. The world is a violent place where the strong and violent rule. Peace cannot win this fight. You cannot win a fight peacefully against these people.

[Louis VI the Fat]

But anyway, this is just one more reason why we will witness our own extinction or enslavement by the Islamic "religion" if we continue to bury our heads in the sand of political correctness and not call the guilty what they really are. The goal of true Islam is not to live side by side as equals with other faiths or complete unbelievers. The silent MAJORITY of muslims that are peaceful cannot hold back the MINORITY of violent ones that are doing the killing. The world is a violent place where the strong and violent rule. Peace cannot win this fight. You cannot win a fight peacefully against these people.

Which calls for the classic:

[Strike For The South]

I agree with Fasial.

Religion is merely a pawn in the greater scheme if things. Sure the lowest rungs truly believe but the men who plan and back these attacks eat bacon on the weekends. They want more power and they see an outlet in a rundown populace with nowhere else to turn.

I mean look at the Turks. There're muslims and they are relatively docile and literate.

[Husar]

Don't dishonor yourself my friend by defending the guilty with blood on their hands.

Well, you cannot complain about religion and honor killings and then tell me to keep my honor.
Honor for me is an abstract concept that is, just like religion, often used to justify killing.
Apart from that I was in no way defending them, I said before what they did was disgusting, but I do not think condemning all muslims as you do is the way to go or else we could just say all christians are evil crusaders who convert by the sword, I know that's an old story, but christianity is also an older religion.
I think we should judge everyone by their own deeds and not as a group, there are black sheep everywhere and GWB, a "christian" also had a lot of people killed based on lies, but I do not condemn all US Americans for what this guy did, the islamic terrorists do, and that's exactly where they have similarities to certain western people who want to turn the whole middle east into a parking lot for the deeds of a few terrorists.

[Fragony]

The goal of true Islam is not to live side by side as equals with other faiths or complete unbelievers. The silent MAJORITY of muslims that are peaceful cannot hold back the MINORITY of violent ones that are doing the killing. The world is a violent place where the strong and violent rule. Peace cannot win this fight. You cannot win a fight peacefully against these people.

Helps if we call it radical islam. For the rest, yep. It's like the Hydra you have to cut off all it's heads.

edit http://in.reuters.com/article/topNew...36880720081205

This makes no sense I call bull.

[Jolt]

I agree with Fasial.

Religion is merely a pawn in the greater scheme if things. Sure the lowest rungs truly believe but the men who plan and back these attacks eat bacon on the weekends. They want more power and they see an outlet in a rundown populace with nowhere else to turn.

I mean look at the Turks. There're muslims and they are relatively docile and literate.

Curiously, I was trying to figure out what sets Turkish Muslims from the rest of other muslims. And while the concept of "Civilized" is an ambiguous one, it's really the only answer I could find. As much as "racist" or "superioristic" this may seem, the Turks are much more "Europeanized" than other Muslims. They are much more culturally similar to us than other muslims, and have the same understanding of European or Western values than most Europeans. (I'm talking in terms of Nation) That's why you look at the attempts from the Turkish party in power of bringing back some Religious Muslim laws, and the entire people rose in protests against the moves, since they understand the basic concept behind laicité, or Secularism. Whereas, in Lebanon, Iraq and elsewhere, you see a blatant polarisation of the country into different religions, and the people doesn't raise as a whole to protest.

The problem Dave with your argument, is that you don't know which is the goal of True Islam. What is "True" Islam for you? Is it what you see in the televisions and in the news? What is True Islam for the extremists? What is True Islam for me? What about for the millions of peaceful Muslims who live in the Western World? What about the True Islam for those Muslims who fight and die trying to stamp out extremist Muslims? Is your opinion of True Islam valid for them too? The bottom line is that there is a different "True" Islam for each person, and your opinion of True Islam isn't necessarily the most valid one