Koinon Hellenon Generals Are Lame

[Marcus Ulpius]

I don't find them lame at all. In my KH campaign I've used them as flankers when I could afford it and as front line units when I couldn't. They held the line just fine even against phalanxes. I had to use them on the walls once and the general defended the wall without taking too many casualties. The only time I've lost a general was in some crazy siege when his unit was fighting too much on the streets and got exhausted. You just had a very bad luck in that battle.

I had something similar, only in Medieval TW. I've nearly completely destroyed the enemy with the only thing remaining was the enemy trebouchlet (sp). Having no other cavalry than my glorious general, I charge him there across half the map. Exactly at that time the said trebouchlet fires on one of my 3-rd grade militia units, but it misses and hits my general bodyguard unit who were just riding towards the trebouchlet, result - general killed on the spot.

And if we're talking about crappy generals in EB, that's Roman Consulars. They are nearly useless against anything, except may be skirmishers and already wavering troops.

[a completely inoffensive name]

And if we're talking about crappy generals in EB, that's Roman Consulars. They are nearly useless against anything, except may be skirmishers and already wavering troops.

I always thought the Roman bodyguard's were at least decent. They don't fall apart immediately like it would seem like from everyone's poor opinion of them.

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, they are decent. When I face them as Makedonia, they fare quite well. Unless, of course, they face my Somatophylakes Strategou. Now that's another story

Maion

[Celtic_Punk]

Roman generals turn tail against celtic levy's... Piss poor performace in every battle I've had them. They just aren't heavy enough, or light enough. It's not the soldier's fault. Its the equipment that is their true failing.

[Cbvani]

Roman generals turn tail against celtic levy's... Piss poor performace in every battle I've had them. They just aren't heavy enough, or light enough. It's not the soldier's fault. Its the equipment that is their true failing.

Agreed. Roman generals are best used only to take out routing enemies. I've never had them be any good against anything else (by any good, I mean with a charge that delivers a decent number of kills, or any serious staying power in melee.)

[antisocialmunky]

I love KH Generals. I once lost a bridge battle(very dire situation) and a general was trapped(He was a lame FM) by hordes of Thracians. It took about a minute in super fast mode for him to finally die... And that was because I ordered him to run out of the mass of dudes.

I dunno, they seem to do pretty well when you keep them in defense mode and stationary like other hoplite units. I usually also keep them out of combat except when flanking. As for dying... well that happened to Thebes at the end of the Corinthian Wars. I believe both the leaders of the anti-Sparta alliance bought it in the final battle.

[LordCurlyton]

Maybe its from playing Romani so much but....
The Romans do not have spectacular FM guards but I will definitely throw them into melee. they do have a decent sidearm, after all, and since the AI rarely, if ever, uses the secondary weapon on FMs I can butcher better cavalry with them. I used my Romani FMs as other cavalry FM killers. I would avoid foot FMs like the plague, though, as they had a tendency to inflict...undue casualties....on my FMs. But I have killed countless Carthie, Ptolie, AS, Mak, Getic, Gallic FMs by direct confrontation with my Romani FMs. i personally think the Romani FM naysayers are just spoiled from using the very heavy and ultra heavy cav available to just about any faction east of Rome. Against their local rivals only the Carthies can go toe to toe and hope to win. Luso FMs = chum, Gallic FMs = tougher chum. This is not to say that any FM truly sucks (Casse excluded, sorry) its just that no one near Rome has a FM that truly outclasses the Romani ones when used in AI hands. Get further east, however, and you start seeing the catas and other ultra heavies that can win even in AI hands by virtue of being hellenistic tanks.
To put it in the tank parallel, Romani FMs = Shermans, a very utilitarian type; Eastern FMs = Tiger tanks, singular butt kickers in comparison. The Somatophylkes Strategou are at the cusp of the border between world beaters and utilitarian IMO, much like the Carthie FMs. If the AI used their secondary weapons I'm sure my Romani FMs would have to be a lot more cautious. Oh, and foot FMs = bazookas.

[Cullhwch]

I always thought the Roman bodyguard's were at least decent. They don't fall apart immediately like it would seem like from everyone's poor opinion of them.

It's just that the Equites Consulares aren't good at anything. At all. Melee-specific cavalry bodyguards tend to have a solid charge and either an AP weapon (kopis or mace) or a high-lethality celtic longsword as a backup weapon. The Consulares' charge is adequate, but their melee capabilities are undermined by their crappy short swords, which have a lower lethality and a lower attack than the Brihentins' longswords yet also lack the AP attribute. This is compounded by the fact that the Consulares' defense values are the lowest among all cavalry bodyguards. In short, Equites Consulares will lose every fair fight against enemy generals. And they will lose badly.

[Marcus Ulpius]

I have experience with Roman bodyguards, KH, Carthie and now Macedonian. Among those, Romans are absolutely the worst. Both Carthie and Macedonian FMs charge into infantry and devastate everything in their pass. I had fresh units being routed by their flank or rear charge. KH generals are very durable and can inflict good damage virtually on every unit before sustaining significant casualties. Roman Consulars are another story. I usually try not to use them at all before the enemy starts mass routing, but in some battles during my Romani campaign I had no choice.

Once I had a very difficult battle against Aedui when they've brought tons of northern Gallic swordsmen. I've charged with the consulars at the back of their swordsmen unit. The charge brought nearly no casualties, and when the charge was spent, Consulars started dieing like flies. I barely got my general out.

[Apgad]

Yeah, Romani FMs are average cavalry, but they're average cavalry with the bonus of regeneration. In other games you need to find a special ring to get that magical trait...

Don't build an army expecting it to be "just good enough" as long as your FM comes through with some magical move that causes all enemies to rout.

Some factions have FMs that do that, some don't. Some have FMs that will stand fast through hours of melee until they grind down their opponents. The fun of the game is to work with what you have, and adapt your tactics accordingly.

I've had plenty of games where one faction's FMs get chopped up like cabbage, and then in the next campaign they'll tear me a new one.

[Celtic_Punk]

So as you can see mr. OP... Koinon Hellenon generals ARE NOT LAME... You just have shite luck.
They can be the most powerful force on the battlefield. Nothing touches them in a seige once you are inside the walls. You are defending a settlement? put your general right on the man route to the town square. They'll hold the line for the entire battle.

[LordCurlyton]

In all fairness it really depends on the tactics that a player likes to employ. Since with the exception of the Pahlava I generally play infantry factions my tactics and use of cavalry reflect that. All i ask of my cavalry is to cover my flanks, perform light skirmishing duties, and perform the final routing charge if necessary. For those tasks the Romani FM is more than capable. I like to lock horns with my infantry and once one flank has been worn down to the point where the enemy is beginning to get shaken I'll commit my FMs, assuming my flanks are secure, which generally leads to a folding of the flank and a mass rout. Like I said earlier, I will use my FMs as FM killers, but we're talking about me using the AI's inability to switch to secondary and me swarming a single enemy FM with 3-4 of mine. When it comes to choosing what cav I use, I prefer light/medium melee cav. Incidentally, the Romani have that: their Equites and Equites Extraordinarii. And I'll use the Campanian cavalry as my heavy skirmishers.
OK, now I'm rambling. My point is that perhaps he used his FMs in a less-than-optimal way. maybe the FM had already taken a few hits and a lucky blow was all that was needed. I agree with the rest of the crowd in the "KH generals DON'T suck" group.