C'mon Ireland, you know you want to...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ireland democratically decided to join the EU, through various previous agreements. This does not mean that they shoud forever hold their breath. They are perfectly entitled to subject any existing or future treaty to whatever democratic decision making process of their liking.

Just because they said 'yes' once, does not mean they forfeited the opportunity to say 'no' the next time. Likewise, just because they said 'non' once, does not mean they shouldn't have an opportunity to say 'yes' next time.

Neither the pro nor the anti treaty camp can insist the other camp should forever hold its breath. I really don't understand the outrage.

[LittleGrizzly]

Well in fairness to the anti EU camp what are the realistic chances of a do you want to pull back out of the treaty vote ?

[InsaneApache]

It's funny how they don't insist on another vote when the voters get it 'right' though, isn't it?

[LittleGrizzly]

Well as i see it, it would be an anti EU party that would eventually propse a vote to exit the eu treaty...

That being said... as the treaty was never properly ratified there is no treaty to repeal... so its a bit hard to know....

TBH once the treaty has gone through i very much doubt it would be repealed anywhere barring major circumstances... so imo the anti eu camp are right to try anything and everything to stop a vote and then make sure its rejected... once its passed it aint coming down...

[Louis VI the Fat]

TBH once the treaty has gone through i very much doubt it would be repealed anywhere barring major circumstances... so imo the anti eu camp are right to try anything and everything to stop a vote and then make sure its rejected... once its passed it aint coming down...

Actually, the Lisbon treaty was the first EU treaty to give countries an easy way out of the EU, should they ever so desire.

It's funny how they don't insist on another vote when the voters get it 'right' though, isn't it?

The Irish did get it 'right' the last time. In 1992, Ireland voted 'yes' to the Maastricht Treaty. And they got it 'right' the time before that. Etcetera.

However, the pro EU camp never uses this as an argument against any future referendums. Ireland can have as many EU referendums as it likes. They can have one every week if they want. Only the anti EU camp wants to silence all opposition by demanding that Ireland can never have another EU referendum again.

We were given the opportunity to say no? Really?

The German constitution does not provide for a referendum. The German people express their democratic wish through other means. This does not mean that Germany isn't a rock-solid democracy by even the highest standards.

[LittleGrizzly]

Actually, the Lisbon treaty was the first EU treaty to give countries an easy way out of the EU, should they ever so desire.

But no goverment in power seems like they would be willing to do that, and without a willing goverment you won't pull out, and there aren't scheduled referendums asking if they want to stay in the eu.... for example in the uk in current political climate your only option would be voting UKIP, who will never win an election, so you could never get out once your in basically... barring as i said major circumstance change, of course if a goverment was willing im sure it would be easy, but with major political parties all being pro eu (in uk) you wouldn't have a choice...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

how about in Germany ?

Depends. Do you prefer communists or fascists?

The German constitution does not provide for a referendum. The German people express their democratic wish through other means. This does not mean that Germany isn't a rock-solid democracy by even the highest standards.

Section II, Article 20, Line 2. Point on the matter. The lack of a referendum may not be unconstitutional, but the Treaty itself?

The government should ask the people. They should care. Merkel doesn't - and she certainly won't receive my vote.

[LittleGrizzly]

Depends. Do you prefer communists or fascists

well im a red at heart so commies i guess.... these are very minor parties in germany i assume ?

and i though facist parties were banned in germany after the last one ?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

well im a red at heart so commies i guess.... these are very minor parties in germany i assume ?

One is, one isn't. Die Linke (The Left) manages to maintain fifty-three seats in the Bundestag. They're not "really" communist, but since they're essentially a successor party of this...

and i though facist parties were banned in germany after the last one ?

No, only Neo-Nazi parties are banned. Fascists are alright, according to the courts. That'd be these guys.

EDIT: I quite like him as a politician, and I'm probably going to vote for Die Republikaner, because I can't stomach voting for a fascist party and I despise the European Union too much to vote for the FDP.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Section II, Article 20, Line 2. Point on the matter. The lack of a referendum may not be unconstitutional, but the Treaty itself?

The government should ask the people. They should care. Merkel doesn't - and she certainly won't receive my vote.

the German Federal constitution has no provision for referendums. The constitution will have to be amended to allow for a referendum.

Alas, Section II, Article 20, Line 2 does not provide for a referendum at the federal level. At the provincial level, referendums are provided for.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

the German Federal constitution has no provision for referendums. The constitution will have to be amended to allow for a referendum.

It is rather ironic that the provision that was supposed to save us from a totalitarian transition has led us to accept one without choice.

Alas, Section II, Article 20, Line 2 does not provide for a referendum at the federal level.

Yes, you are correct. However, it does practically make the entire Lisbon Treaty unconstitutional.

Don't be daft EMFM, no one was stopping you from getting elected to Chancellor

Who knows, perhaps I'll consider running.

[JR-]

The German constitution does not provide for a referendum. The German people express their democratic wish through other means. This does not mean that Germany isn't a rock-solid democracy by even the highest standards.

when the nation state wishes to give away to a third party the authority i grant to it to act in my name then i do indeed expect to ask my consent via a referendum.

[Tribesman]

There are some concessions being offered that may make the Lisbon Treaty more palatable. Until I see what these are, I cannot make much of a comment.

Now then , if there are concessions being offered does that mean that the treaty is being altered in some way which would mean that the countries that have already ratified will have ratified a treaty that no longer exists and will have to (in the interests of democracy) have to re-ratify the new amended amending treaty ?
Will they ever get the message that as the original treaty was rejected , the amending treaty was also rejected and the proposed new amended amending treaty stands a good chance of being rejected if it gets put to the vote , that perhaps its time they realised their treaty is bollox and they should start again ?
Or will they just repeat the same old crap that they have worked really really hard and the people are just being selfish by saying the product on offer from their work is rubbish ?

[InsaneApache]

That's a very good point Tribes.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Now then , if there are concessions being offered does that mean that the treaty is being altered in some way which would mean that the countries that have already ratified will have ratified a treaty that no longer exists and will have to (in the interests of democracy) have to re-ratify the new amended amending treaty ?
Will they ever get the message that as the original treaty was rejected , the amending treaty was also rejected and the proposed new amended amending treaty stands a good chance of being rejected if it gets put to the vote , that perhaps its time they realised their treaty is bollox and they should start again ?
Or will they just repeat the same old crap that they have worked really really hard and the people are just being selfish by saying the product on offer from their work is rubbish ?

I don't take issue with anything you wrote - particularly in the challenge to my poorly worded statement.

However predictable the likely presentation, I'd still like to know what the proposals may be before making my mind up. Though as you point out, the substantive changes I would lke to see would require a new treaty and thus a new round of ratification. I stand by my original argument that a new treaty, put to the consent of the people of Europe, is the only way forward.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Just because they said 'yes' once, does not mean they forfeited the opportunity to say 'no' the next time.

We were given the opportunity to say no? Really? I obviously didn't get the memo from Empress High Chancellor Ms. Merkel. How unfortunate.

[LittleGrizzly]

Are any of the larger party's in europe anti eu ?

In britian it is only the 4th largest party that is anti eu, and they aren't really a party with any power, they have a few european parlimentary seats but none in our native parliment (which is kind of ironic...) so there is not really an option for anti eu'rs.... how about in Germany ? France ? ect. ?

[CountArach]

We were given the opportunity to say no? Really? I obviously didn't get the memo from Empress High Chancellor Ms. Merkel. How unfortunate.

Don't be daft EMFM, no one was stopping you from getting elected to Chancellor

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ireland democratically decided to join the EU, through various previous agreements. This does not mean that they shoud forever hold their breath. They are perfectly entitled to subject any existing or future treaty to whatever democratic decision making process of their liking.

Just because they said 'yes' once, does not mean they forfeited the opportunity to say 'no' the next time. Likewise, just because they said 'non' once, does not mean they shouldn't have an opportunity to say 'yes' next time.

Neither the pro nor the anti treaty camp can insist the other camp should forever hold its breath. I really don't understand the outrage.

Funny how people don't get the chance to say "no" after they've said "yes".


Has there been any clamoring for a second vote in Ireland, or is this just the EU insisting it gets its way? Come on now, surely you don't view this as an innocent chance for the Irish people to ponder the question again? If you do, why have all the countries who voted "yes" or decreed they were in agreement not got a second chance to review their decisions?

The treaty requires full support. It hasn't got it. That means the treaty should be dead.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

Has there been any clamoring for a second vote in Ireland, or is this just the EU insisting it gets its way? Come on now, surely you don't view this as an innocent chance for the Irish people to ponder the question again?

What I find funny is how the jubilant 'no' camp assumes it is the spokesperson for Ireland. Close to half the Irish people voted 'yes'. There is a massive pro-Treaty and an even larger pro-EU camp in Ireland.

Why do they need to be silenced forever? Just because a previous referendum gave the anti-camp their favoured result? Should America never hold an election anymore now that the American people have voted 'correctly'?




The refused treaty, 'Lisbon' was in 2004. The referendum about a new treaty will be held five years later. The world is different, Ireland is different.

For one, for those who haven't noticed: the EU has been going trough its finest hour in the past few months. It is commonly regarded a great instrument of stablity during the financial crisis. The euro has proved its worth as well.

[LittleGrizzly]

If you do, why have all the countries who voted "yes" or decreed they were in agreement not got a second chance to review their decisions?

Unless i am misunderstanding the issue, because the treaty was never ratified there is no decision for these countries to overturn

Edit: if anyone does want out they'll have to go the political route... in which case we'll declare war and make them stay! damn confederates...

[Fragony]

What I find funny is how the jubilant 'no' camp assumes it is the spokesperson for Ireland. Close to half the Irish people voted 'yes'. There is a massive pro-Treaty and an even larger pro-EU camp in Ireland.

Why do they need to be silenced forever? Just because a previous referendum gave the anti-camp their favoured result? Should America never hold an election anymore now that the American people have voted 'correctly'?




The refused treaty, 'Lisbon' was in 2004. The referendum about a new treaty will be held five years later. The world is different, Ireland is different.

For one, for those who haven't noticed: the EU has been going trough its finest hour in the past few months. It is commonly regarded a great instrument of stablity during the financial crisis. The euro has proved its worth as well.

Hold a referendum on a new referendum, voila done

[Banquo's Ghost]

For information, the 2009 date is the deadline being set for the Irish government by the EU leadership.

There are some concessions being offered that may make the Lisbon Treaty more palatable. Until I see what these are, I cannot make much of a comment.

Louis is right though - there is no reason why a new referendum cannot be held if a newly amended treaty is being proposed. Like the British rebate, this may prove to be in our favour. However, from my personal point of view, I shall still be looking for a substantial increase in democratic accountability.

Unfortunately for the pro-European camp this attempt, whatever its merits, will be advocated by the most unpopular Taoiseach in modern history. And a re-run referendum will inevitably anger the electorate and if there are good changes, these will be lost in the fury and sound-bite politics.

[Louis VI the Fat]

An extensive poll study shortly after the Irish no vote revealed the following:

73% of the Irish consider EU membership to be a good thing.
63% of the 'no' voters consider EU membership to be a good thing.
(The European average is 52% in favour of the EU)
Only 18% of the Irish electorate wants to be less involved with the EU.

Yet, 53% of Irish voters voted 'no' to the Lisbon Treaty.

This is why there is every reason to try to reach a settlement. Even among the no voters, two-thirds are of the opinion that the EU is beneficial to Ireland. Yet, it is also clear that the EU can not function properly without a streamlining of its institutions and functioning.

The EU went from fifteen to twenty-seven members in 2004. Simultanously, to help the EU cope with this, a new set of treaties was supposed to go into effect. The first happened, the latter didn't. This is the heart of the problem.
If one is against the EU, there is reason to support this ongoing situation, whereby the EU can not function properly. If one is in favour of the EU, as three-quarters of the Irish are, then there is every reason to try to find a way out.

Preferably, what we need, is a new Irish government, with new energy and charisma, that enjoys the support of the electorate. One that can a) negotiate for Ireland the main provisions and concessions that are sought by the no-camp. And, b) that can on the basis of this present a clear and coherent argument for a yes vote based on the Irish interest in a functioning EU.

There are some concessions being offered that may make the Lisbon Treaty more palatable. Until I see what these are, I cannot make much of a comment.

The problem is that Ireland, the no-camp, does not have one or two clear demands that can be negotiated over. There's a whole array of demands, not all of them straightforward:

The farmers, who have received two thirds of Ireland's EU subsidies, argue that their handouts will be drastically cut, devastating rural areas.

Pro-life groups say Ireland will be forced to relax its abortion laws, pacifists say Ireland's cherished neutrality will be in danger because of provisions for a European army, and patriots say Ireland will be giving up the independence it fought so hard for less than 100 years ago.

On top of all that, there are fears that a centralised taxation system will mean the end of Ireland's favourable 12.5 per cent corporation tax (compared with the UK's 28 per cent), which has helped attract so many businesses.

Most of these can be negotiated over. Other countries have received specific exemptions too. For example, the UK and Poland demanded that European human rights must not be applicable to their subjects, so they were given exemption status. Likewise, if Ireland fears for liberal abortion laws, then maybe Ireland can seek exemption status from women's rights provisions.

However, any concession over each of these issues, will also reduce the support for the 'yes' camp. If the EU promises more handouts to Irish farmers, it will lose support too. Even so, there seems to be no other option but for concessions.

[Louis VI the Fat]

If I were a pro-EU strategist, I would urge the EU to remain completely absent from any Irish debate.

Instead, I'd invite in all the no-camps from Europe. Bring in the UKIP, let them tell the Irish that they should vote no. Bring in the Polish nationalists, let them spout threats to any Irishman who even considers voting yes. The 'no-camp' must be made to look to be the camp of vested interests, of foreign interference, of arrogance, to be the camp telling Ireland what to vote. Whereas the 'yes-camp' should present itself as the calm, rational, Irish camp that has formulated clear, traditional Irish interests and that seeks to maintain them in the face of foreign interventions.

This in a reversal of what happened during the last referendum. Where the no-camp managed to spin the referendum into an 'arrogant foreigners telling Ireland what to do' versus 'Irish resistance'.

[InsaneApache]

Personally, if I was an Irishman, I'd be insulted. As an Englishman, I'm insulted.

The EU doesn't do itself any favours by acting like this.

*pictures Louis chuckling like a mad de Gaulle on acid*

From the Gruniads CiF...

I agree with tomper2. Why don't they just be honest this time and leave the "no" box off the voting form?

[Louis VI the Fat]

As an Englishman, I'm insulted.

I am quite sure that England is insulted that Ireland might not do as England pleases (those pesky, uppity Irish!). But I am afraid that any hurt feelings of English nationalism* will not be very high on the list of considerations for the Irish Republic during the referendum.

*England. Not the UK. England mistakes English nationalism for British nationalism. The Scots, the Welsh, and across the Irish Sea, other national narratives prevail.

*pictures Louis chuckling like a mad de Gaulle on acid*

It's funny that England now wishes it had listened to De Gaulle, and had stayed out. Now it is too late.

De Gaulle is dead. Meanwhile, we have grown fond of England. The better we are aquainted with it, the more we like it! Their kicking and screaming, their little obstructionist plans - every week a new one!, their toy soldier nationalism, it is simpy adorable! We're never going to let go of you ever again. It's all way too sweet! Like a cute cuddly kitten, you can't escape my embrace no matter how much you struggle.