India to terrorists: Resistance is futile

[rory_20_uk]

I wasn't linking it and I thought it was called the slippery slope argument but if you like to stop calling humans non-humans to circumvent human rights, go ahead, but it doesn't make you any better in my book.

People have rights - bit IMO linked to responsibilities. Since he has broken the former, he's lost the latter.

[Tribesman]

People have rights - bit IMO linked to responsibilities. Since he has broken the former, he's lost the latter.

So you are either saying that if people commit crimes they lose all rights or if people do not fulfill their responsibilities they are not people .
Either way you are talking crazy .
Since you have said in the past that you want to leave Britain might I suggest that you move to Saudi Arabia or possibly Afghanistan once the Taliban return as your views would feel right at home there .

[Alexanderofmacedon]

He gave up his rights in my opinion. And it looks like he is singing now.

BG: Using so-called "truth serum" is hardly effective. My, how some like to believe that their revenge fantasies are also useful.

To get anything out of such an interrogation, one needs solid and effective intelligence to relate the disjointed rambling against. Then again, if one has solid and effective intelligence, you get far more from a standard interrogation through layered questioning and narrative traps.

And there's several good reasons why most people, given the option, prefer to live in "advanced democracies" - and a lot of them have to do with respect for human rights.

Interrogated someone recently?

[Tribesman]

He gave up his rights in my opinion.

Even Hitler would have had rights if he was arrested after the war so it doesn't say much for your opinion .

And it looks like he is singing now.

The Indians said the serum was being administered to establish his identity , they already knew who he was and where he came from the only new information they have come up with is two names who they arrested for helping in facilitating the attack before promptly releasing one as he was working for Indian intelligence all along and another name who had previously been arrested and was under surveilance for months .
Not a very good result is it

Interrogated someone recently?

BG has retired from that anti terrorist sort of thing , so I doubt he has recently interrogated anyone .

[rory_20_uk]

Even Hitler would have had rights if he was arrested after the war so it doesn't say much for your opinion.

Neither yours. Considering the whitewash the post war trials were with the "Democratic" countries giving the death penalties with little if any evidence. He'd have been shot.

Not a good result, no. I guess they should have known this before they started...

Who says breaking the law looses you all rights? Well... you did - and then attributed it to me.

At the risk of joining your two personalities in the argument I would say that there would be a fine gradient. His actions place him firmly at one end of that gradient.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Even Hitler would have had rights if he was arrested after the war so it doesn't say much for your opinion .


The Indians said the serum was being administered to establish his identity , they already knew who he was and where he came from the only new information they have come up with is two names who they arrested for helping in facilitating the attack before promptly releasing one as he was working for Indian intelligence all along and another name who had previously been arrested and was under surveilance for months .
Not a very good result is it



BG has retired from that anti terrorist sort of thing , so I doubt he has recently interrogated anyone .

I noted it was my opinion simply for that reason. There is no need to attack it. Not to mention, rory brings up a good point about said "rights" that were given after the war.

Whether the serum is what caused him to talk or not I do not know, but I do know he's been talking since he was captured about the entire operation including goals (to kill upwards of 5,000 and how to do it), why things didn't work (Taj exterior was too thick), as well as much more info than his name and where he came from.

My question was a serious one intended to question the validity of BG's claims. If he is retired from anti-terrorist organizations then they are more valid, while if not...

[Tribesman]

Considering the whitewash the post war trials were with the "Democratic" countries giving the death penalties with little if any evidence. He'd have been shot.

Oh dear Rory , might I suggest that you study any small portion of the overwhelming evidence presented at the war crimes trials before you say something so dumb again , hey you can even restrict yourself to evidence in the cases where there was death sentences rather than the piles of evidence where the defendant was just jailed or aquitted . Perhaps start with the 22 rather large volumes in the British Blue set then you can go on to the Red set , perhaps try the minute by minute account of the 216 court sessions of evidence from a single trial at Nizkhor just for fun

Who says breaking the law looses you all rights? Well... you did - and then attributed it to me.

Errrrr ......No rory

People have rights - bit IMO linked to responsibilities. Since he has broken the former, he's lost the latter.

see its simple language from your own country , do you somehow not understand it ?

[Husar]

Well, what rory is actually saying there is that since he broke the rights, he lost the responsibilities but since I made a big mistake in my last or second to last post as well I'm willing to overlook it.
Doesn't mean I agree with it though, indulging in barbarism to fight barbarians does not make you any less barbaric which in turn makes you look stupid when you complain about their barbarism.

[Tribesman]

Ah I see what you are saying Husar , you think that as he broke the responsibilities he lost the rights that go with those responsibilities , thats fair enough I am in total agreement , but that isn't what Rory is saying .........

He has no rights.

....which is bollox , even the worst scumbag in the world still has some rights because distasteful as it may seem they are still human , which is why Rory with his approach of.....

As far as I am concerned he should not be classed as a human being

....is so fundamentally flawed and as you noted .....

I heard the same applies to jews

...which is a bit sharp but it certainly cuts to the point .
So if you take that and tie it with his rather strange....

When were Jews running around with grenades, shooting indiscriminately? I missed that on the news!

.....then look at an example like Baruch Goldstein where a freak went round killing indiscriminately claiming he was doing it in the name of his religion it comes up with the strange judicial verdict that even though he had been shooting indiscriminately his death was still legally murder , because even though his actions would lose him many of his rights he still had some rights .

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Oh dear Rory , might I suggest that you study any small portion of the overwhelming evidence presented at the war crimes trials before you say something so dumb again , hey you can even restrict yourself to evidence in the cases where there was death sentences rather than the piles of evidence where the defendant was just jailed or aquitted . Perhaps start with the 22 rather large volumes in the British Blue set then you can go on to the Red set , perhaps try the minute by minute account of the 216 court sessions of evidence from a single trial at Nizkhor just for fun

Oh dear me, that is a good laugh.

[Husar]

Ah I see what you are saying Husar , you think that as he broke the responsibilities he lost the rights that go with those responsibilities , thats fair enough I am in total agreement , but that isn't what Rory is saying

My point was that this is what Rory probably wanted to say but what he did say was that as he broke the rights he lost the responsibilities which sounds kinda funny.
I think if you "break" the responsibilities you lose some rights, like that of freedom etc. but certain rights you should always keep as they make the difference between the civilized nice guys and the cruel barbarians. Punishment with restraint and "heart" shows more willpower than mindless rage. I know it's hard but I believe the results are better in the end.

[Jolt]

Even Hitler would have had rights if he was arrested after the war so it doesn't say much for your opinion .

Did he? He certainly didn't think the jews and large swaths of his (And other sovereign nations) populations had rights. So should he be superior to them all?

[Tribesman]

Exactly Jolt , well done , you have it in a nutshell but are unable to see it .

[Vladimir]

Or perhaps someone might like to claim that Waller isn't a conspiracy nut who makes crazy claims and invents quotes for use in his blogs .

Oh dear. I know how much you hate research.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

J. Michael Waller
Walter and Leonore Annenberg Professor of International Communication
Professional Experience

Dr. Waller holds the Walter and Leonore Annenberg Chair in International Communication, and directs the Institute's graduate programs on public diplomacy and political warfare.

He has been a scholar-practitioner in public diplomacy, political warfare, psychological operations and information operations in support of US foreign and military policy. He was a member of the staff of the U.S. House of Representatives and the US Senate, served on the White House Task Force on Central America, and has served as a consultant to the US Information Agency, the US Agency for International Development, and the Office of the Secretary of Defense in support of operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. In 2006 he received a citation from the Director of the FBI for "exceptional service in the public interest."

He is a frequent lecturer and instructor in psychological and information operations for the US military and the intelligence community; a member of the faculty of the Leader Development and Education for Sustained Peace (LDESP) program at the Naval Postgraduate School; and is an Honorary Fellow at the Proteus Futures Group at the Center for Strategic Leadership of the US Army War College, sponsored by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and the National Intelligence University.

Dr. Waller is editor of Serviam, a magazine he co-founded in 2007 for and about private sector global stability solutions. He has written for Insight, the Los Angeles Times, Reader's Digest, USA Today, the Washington Times and the Wall Street Journal. He is an occasional commentator on the BBC, CNN, Fox News and MSNBC.

He was a founding editor of Demokratizatsiya: The Journal of Post-Soviet Democratization, published in cooperation with the American University and Moscow State University.

His books include the prizewinning Secret Empire: The KGB in Russia Today (Westview, 1994); Dismantling Tyranny: Transitioning Beyond Totalitarian Regimes, ed. with Ilan Berman (Rowman & Littlefield, 2006); Fighting the War of Ideas like a Real War (IWP Press, 2007); The Public Diplomacy Reader (IWP Press, 2007); and the forthcoming Strategic Influence: Public Diplomacy, Counterpropaganda and Political Warfare (IWP Press, 2008).

He is Vice President for Information Operations of the Center for Security Policy. His blog is PoliticalWarfare.org.
Education
B.A., Phi Beta Kappa, 1985, George Washington University; John M. Olin Fellow, Boston University, 1987-1989; M.A., Boston University, 1989; Ph.D., Boston University, Institute for the Study of Conflict, Ideology and Policy, 1993. Recipient of the University Professors Alumni Award for Best Dissertation, 1993. Recipient of the University Professors Distinguished Alumni Award, 2007.

So far there is a lot of good discussion on a very sensitive issue.

[Strike For The South]

Prisoners have rights. Even ones who try to kill you.

[Tribesman]

Wow what an impressive resume Vlad, it doesn't mean that Waller isn't a paranoid conspiracy nut who invents quotes though does it .
Though to be fair maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt and believe his claim that he doesn't invent quotes its just that his publishers and editors add these little things "" to his work so it makes it look like he is quoting peoples words when he isn't really quoting peoples words .
Research my arse

[Husar]

Did he? He certainly didn't think the jews and large swaths of his (And other sovereign nations) populations had rights. So should he be superior to them all?

So do you think everybody has rights or do you exclude people like Hitler did?

[Vladimir]

Wow what an impressive resume Vlad, it doesn't mean that Waller isn't a paranoid conspiracy nut who invents quotes though does it .
Though to be fair maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt and believe his claim that he doesn't invent quotes its just that his publishers and editors add these little things "" to his work so it makes it look like he is quoting peoples words when he isn't really quoting peoples words .
Research my arse

It also doesn't prove (or disprove) that you're BG's alternate personality.

Post your resume. Oh wait, I have it here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BOLLOX!

Let's see who people trust most as being a legitimate scholar. Prove that you're not a paranoid conspiracy nut who invents quotes...or is a prolific smilie abuser.

[Strike For The South]

It also doesn't prove (or disprove) that you're BG's alternate personality.
:

That would be all kinds of crazy

[Fragony]

But it is possible these things happen, my imaginary friend could be treated pretty well, he is pretty much normal nowadays but he barks at the moon, even psychiatry has it it's limits sadly maybe one day we can help him.

[Tribesman]

Let's see who people trust most as being a legitimate scholar.

Well thats an easy thingto measure .
How many politicians and journalists have taken quotes from my writing and then had to explain why the quote they used of my "quote" wasn't really a quote as the person I quoted had never used the words I "quoted" them as saying ? Then do the same with his writing .
If the result is..... Me O times---Waller lots and lots of times.... then that is rather a good indication is it not
Research Vlad , its so easy try it some time

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well thats an easy thingto measure .
How many politicians and journalists have taken quotes from my writing and then had to explain why the quote they used of my "quote" wasn't really a quote as the person I quoted had never used the words I "quoted" them as saying ? Then do the same with his writing .
If the result is..... Me O times---Waller lots and lots of times.... then that is rather a good indication is it not
Research Vlad , its so easy try it some time

Tribes:

On what basis do you decide on the varying 3, 4, or 5 laughing smiley totals for your little queues? I have been reading you for years --egads! -- but can't really establish a pattern.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Tribes:

On what basis do you decide on the varying 3, 4, or 5 laughing smiley totals for your little queues? I have been reading you for years --egads! -- but can't really establish a pattern.

Jesus I know. This guy is either smoking a little too much hash, or he's naturally one of the happiest people I have ever "met"!

[Papewaio]

The Celts are prone to a dark sense of humour.

[rajpoot]

If I might be allowed to add my bit and two;
The news that has been quoted in the first post, is news to me, I read the papers everyday, and I saw no article about interrogation of the terrorist. Though if someone has made the statement, it must be right.
Next, the government is actually having a hard time, the people most just want to kill the terrorist straight off. The people here don't want them to get a trial at all, and in cases like this I must say, I agree. Because, trials seem to last forever here, they put the chap in a prison, next thing we know, his parteners have hijacked a bus or a plane outside, of kidnapped somebody and will demand his release.
I read recently that one of the terrorists captured in one of the previous attacks, the bombings that took place a few months back, had sent a petition to the president, and that is actually being considered.

[Tribesman]

Hey Seamus here is an explanation , its complete bollox but lets see if its at all credible .
Posting rubbish without research gave ....Research
Making another rubbish post without much research gave...Research
If he does it again without reading more of Wallers work plus some of the criticisms of his work and the problems over his "quotes" and his explanation of how his "quotes" are not really true but are not his fault then he may get a......
Research

[Jolt]

So do you think everybody has rights or do you exclude people like Hitler did?

I exclude people who have a gigantic responsability (Such as is leading a country with millions of living souls) and willingly (And pre-emptively, meaning without prior "provocation") deny such vital human rights (such as the right to live) to entire people's.

Few people would fall under such category, but yes, those people lost their rights in my eyes.

[Tribesman]

Ah but Jolt , how would you reach that judgement that people fall into that category ?
Would they perhaps have a right of a hearing and an appeal process or would it just be arbitary and on a whim ?

[Ironside]

If I might be allowed to add my bit and two;
The news that has been quoted in the first post, is news to me, I read the papers everyday, and I saw no article about interrogation of the terrorist. Though if someone has made the statement, it must be right.
Next, the government is actually having a hard time, the people most just want to kill the terrorist straight off. The people here don't want them to get a trial at all, and in cases like this I must say, I agree. Because, trials seem to last forever here, they put the chap in a prison, next thing we know, his parteners have hijacked a bus or a plane outside, of kidnapped somebody and will demand his release.
I read recently that one of the terrorists captured in one of the previous attacks, the bombings that took place a few months back, had sent a petition to the president, and that is actually being considered.

Wouldn't those hijackers just kill people in revenge for thier executed partner instead? Or in other words, they pretty much lost it and are only trying to find excuses for thier already intended behavior.

I exclude people who have a gigantic responsability (Such as is leading a country with millions of living souls) and willingly (And pre-emptively, meaning without prior "provocation") deny such vital human rights (such as the right to live) to entire people's.

Few people would fall under such category, but yes, those people lost their rights in my eyes.

So it's ok, if that other people are threatening the very foundation that your nation is built on?

[Jolt]

Ah but Jolt , how would you reach that judgement that people fall into that category ?
Would they perhaps have a right of a hearing and an appeal process or would it just be arbitary and on a whim ?

My judgement? It's called facts. And there is a saying that goes something like this: "There are no arguments against facts."
6 years of premeditated constant assassination of innocent children and harmless people, and tons of documents with the official seal of the Reich, construction of gigantic grounds with the sole purpose of murdering people, with the obvious approval of the highest dignities of that country is more than enough for me to constitute as a fact, and not to be on a whim.

So it's ok, if that other people are threatening the very foundation that your nation is built on?

No, it's not ok. But 99% of the people (If not really more), were murdered without a just cause according to any sane person's standards.