Units: speculation, rumor, slander and silliness

[ULC]

Meth, what is NTW then?

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah, it'd be a shame if levee en masse is missed out. Ah well, still good. And YLC, Sheo answered your question...

[ULC]

Yes, and I totally missed it

Thanks Sheo

[Fisherking]

If you can study technologies to bring your self up to steamboats and machineguns do you think we will have a French Balloon Corps and a Dutch Bicycle Brigade?

[Sheogorath]

NP, YLC. The only bad thing about NTW is that the website shut down. S'a real shame.

Fisherking, I'm more looking forward to the dreaded Indian Elephant Balloon Division, complete with trunk-mounted tactical nuclear warhead launchers and lasers on their foreheads. BE VERY AFRAID.

[ULC]

Yes, and for Naval battles, we will have rocket dolphins and Sharks with frickin lasers on their heads! Your Finest First Rate will stand no chance!

[Sheogorath]

Yes, and for Naval battles, we will have rocket dolphins and Sharks with frickin lasers on their heads! Your Finest First Rate will stand no chance!

Your glory will only last until we finish work on Diebuster :P

[Jolt]

Then counter-revolution and form the Soviet Socialist Republic of Rome? SSRR?

Soviet is the word for council in Russian. Considering the Roman Republic's language would be Latin I suppose)

It would have to be called in English: Concillium Socialist Republic of Rome. CSRR. Or Concilium Socialis Res Publica Romani. "Council Socialist Public Thing Roman" literally translated, or "Roman Socialist Council which is a Public Thing" translated into English. Or if you wish to turn Res Publica (Which is the original Latin Word), which means "Public Thing", to Respublica, which would mean your Republic, then it would be "Roman Socialist Republic Council". CSRPR or RSCPT or RSRC. Man, translating languages is fun.

Cacodores for the Spanish/Portuguese.

Wait... What? Do you mean something like Caçadores? Hunters?

[Sheogorath]

Soviet is the word for council in Russian. Considering the Roman Republic's language would be Latin I suppose)

It would have to be called in English: Concillium Socialist Republic of Rome. CSRR. Or Concilium Socialis Res Publica Romani. "Council Socialist Public Thing Roman" literally translated, or "Roman Socialist Council which is a Public Thing" translated into English. Or if you wish to turn Res Publica (Which is the original Latin Word), which means "Public Thing", to Respublica, which would mean your Republic, then it would be "Roman Socialist Republic Council". CSRPR or RSCPT or RSRC. Man, translating languages is fun.

I know. However, the term 'Soviet' is inextricably linked with the idea of a communist/socialist state in most peoples minds. And it sounds cool.

Wait... What? Do you mean something like Caçadores? Hunters?

I don't have a keypad on my laptop, so I cant use the funny ASCII characters.
But yeah. Spanish/Portuguese skirmishers. The equivalent of 'Jaeger' in Eastern Europe. They were rather famous at the time.

[Martok]

Gentlemen, if you're going to discuss historical matters, please do so in the Monastery.


I've been curious about whether factions who have colonies in North America will be able to recruit native Indian troops to supplement their regular forces. Perhaps only on a mercenary basis?

[Sheogorath]

Eh? ._.
I'd think that some discussion of history would be inevitable and unavoidable in this topic. Considering the subject matter is directly linked...

Anyway...I'd HOPE that we would see some actual formal native units, but I doubt it. Most likely, as you said, we'll get mercenary natives.

I just hope that we don't end up with crazy horse-riding, Apache-clone Iroquois

[Polemists]

I just hope that we don't end up with crazy horse-riding, Apache-clone Iroquois

While I do agree with that I do hope the natives have something similar to the Warpath function, where they unite together and drive towards a single point. Maybe targets given by a council of tribes or something.

I mean it will get rather boring if we just pick of individual natives one by one. I'm hoping they have some sort of faction, defense functionality.

Like hey we are all getting wiped out by france, from armies coming out of Lousiana, let's unite and take out Louisana, type thing.

[Fisherking]

History as it relates to the Game:

The only Native American Tribe east of the Mississippi River noted for their horses were the Choctaws but they didn’t ride into battle, they fought on foot, even though they may have been one of the first tribes to acquire horses.

I don’t recall seeing a map of the North American Theater so I don’t know how far west it goes. But naturally the South Plains is where you will find the earliest horsemen. The Comanche, Kiowa, and various Apaches may have had horses in 1700 but Sioux were still pedestrian woodland people at the start of the game.

It would be an acquired technology I suppose.

[Megas Methuselah]

While I do agree with that I do hope the natives have something similar to the Warpath function, where they unite together and drive towards a single point. Maybe targets given by a council of tribes or something.

I mean it will get rather boring if we just pick of individual natives one by one. I'm hoping they have some sort of faction, defense functionality.

Like hey we are all getting wiped out by france, from armies coming out of Lousiana, let's unite and take out Louisana, type thing.

While my knowledge of this era is somewhat fuzzy, and due to the fact that I am falling asleep right now, it is a likely possibility that the following statements are somewhat misleading or downright false, and should, in fact, no way be taken as solid truth.

Isn't that similar to what Tecumseh did? If he had survived the war of 1812, he might've gone on to achieve great things, ie. a union of Native American tribes. Although this is somewhat ahead of the game's timeframe, I see why reason as to why this couldn't happen at an earlier date.

[Fisherking]

While I do agree with that I do hope the natives have something similar to the Warpath function, where they unite together and drive towards a single point. Maybe targets given by a council of tribes or something.

I mean it will get rather boring if we just pick of individual natives one by one. I'm hoping they have some sort of faction, defense functionality.

Like hey we are all getting wiped out by france, from armies coming out of Lousiana, let's unite and take out Louisana, type thing.

Look, I have no idea how it should be done in a game, but North America was not Europe. Movement was slow and mostly by water, using Native technology. European methods broke down quickly and the Tribes learned fast.

When the French went to war with the Fox (not exactly a huge tribe) they didn’t manage to wipe them out. The Fox cannon proofed their villages and withstood the French and drove them out (presumably with the aid of the Sauk and Sioux). But countering cannon is no mean feat! (they must have been wonderful diggers)

It was pretty much the other way around. The Europeans were in much more danger of being wiped out by the Tribes. That is why the English did so much to cultivate friendship with the Iroquois. They had already fought the French to a standstill and wiped out several of their allied Tribes. The English were close to loosing the French and Indian War until they got the Iroquois to enter the war on their side.

The great French victory over the Natchez was actually a Choctaw victory where the French were present. The French almost lost Fort Detroit to the Fox, only the timely arrival of a strong relief force saved it, and they lost a couple of forts to the Mohawk, as well as having settlements sacked and burned.

It was a different Theater with different tactics needed because of the environment. Diplomacy , Trade, and Gifts were the keys to keeping the Tribes on your side, and without their aid you just were not going to succeed. Indian Wars usually lasted until the Europeans could manage a peace agreement and never hurt the Indians that much until after the American Revolution. At best they ended in a draw.

Isn't that similar to what Tecumseh did? If he had survived the war of 1812, he might've gone on to achieve great things, ie. a union of Native American tribes. Although this is somewhat ahead of the game's timeframe, I see why reason as to why this couldn't happen at an earlier date.

It will depend on how the Diplomacy is set up for the Tribes, but yes it would be fun to see. Especially if they are moded for human players.

It is a lot of what if after all!

[Polemists]

I wasn't saying the Natives had to be like Europeans or that they had to do a certain function.

I was simply stating how I hoped they would not become the new bandit/rebel entity of ETW, basically a bunch of push overs.

If European powers start to steam roll over them, I'd think it would be pretty logical for them to go, hey let's get together. Just like if they steam rolled over Euro's i'd think the opposite would hold true.

Yes Indian war is fascinating but just not sure how much or little of it CA will put in. Judging by how historic it is, and the fact it has a movie, it will probably at very least recieve a cursory mention.

[Oleander Ardens]

Generic "Indian" units:


Warrior (focus melee) with a bow
Skirmisher with Bow
Skirmisher with Musket
Elite Skirmisher with Bow
Elite Skirmisher with Musket


@Fisherking

While I appreciate your efforts for the Native Americans, you portray quite an one-sided picture of the situation. Comments like are sadly far from true for this timeframe:

It was pretty much the other way around. The Europeans were in much more danger of being wiped out by the Tribes. That is why the English did so much to cultivate friendship with the Iroquois. They had already fought the French to a standstill and wiped out several of their allied Tribes. The English were close to loosing the French and Indian War until they got the Iroquois to enter the war on their side.

At that time the European settlers in Britsh North America were roughly short of a million, controlling large swaths of lands conquered from destroyed/drive out tribes. New French was populated just by 50000. The Iroquois were important, adding a rather large amount of capable warriors and scouts, but certainly not a decisive one.

It was a different Theater with different tactics needed because of the environment. Diplomacy , Trade, and Gifts were the keys to keeping the Tribes on your side, and without their aid you just were not going to succeed. Indian Wars usually lasted until the Europeans could manage a peace agreement and never hurt the Indians that much until after the American Revolution. At best they ended in a draw.

Saying that the wars against the Europeans did not hurt much is quite a thing to say, considering all the land lost and all the vanished tribes already around 1750. A terrible "draw" for many Indian tribes indeed...

[Mailman653]

And now for something completely different:

Black Soldiers and Sailors During the Revolution
It mentions soldiers serving in either mixed or colored regiments for both American and British armies/navies.

The speculation part is, will they have to be modded in or would they have some representation in the game?

[Martok]

Good question, Mailman. Historically, a number of blacks did indeed serve in the war on both sides, so it's certainly within the bounds of realism.

Going by the screenshots thus far, it would appear it'd probably have to be modded (assuming that's possible). It would be cool, though, if they make some sort of appearance -- at least in the Road to Independence campaign, if nothing else.

[Fisherking]

@Oleander Ardens

While I appreciate your efforts for the Native Americans, you portray quite an one-sided picture of the situation. Comments like are sadly far from true for this timeframe:

No, I don’t think so. While this is about game speculation it does require some historical back ground.

In 1700 the tribes were not broken anywhere outside New England. Only one war of consequence had been fought and that did break the two or three tribes involved. King Philip's War (1675-76). But it killed off close to half the white population of New England in the process, and they were still nervous about what could happen. New England of the time were only the three colonies of Rode island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. Those tribes were not eliminated but broken. There were other tribes that didn’t join in or were allied with the colonists so it is not like there were no tribes left there.

The tribes that were eliminated were those of the French Iroquois War and were eliminated by the Iroquois, but that didn’t mean France was without allied tribes.

The fledgling United States faced serious threats from the tribes and fought intermittent wars with various tribes up until the 1890s.

At the start of the game in 1700 there are powerful tribes and all the Europeans were courting them for trade and diplomatic alliance. Most Indian Wars ended in settlement not eradication until after the American Revolution, when the power of the Iroquois was broken, but again and again disease even more than war was the prime factor. Even in the 1750s as you say, they were a potent force. Pontiacs Rebellion ended in settlement in 1763 with the issuance of The Proclamation of 1763 giving lands west of the Appalachians to the Tribes.

If they were so weak, then why would an ever hungry and expanding Briton do that?
The power of the tribes was broken by the end of The War of 1812 but up to that point they still were a potent threat, if not to the existence at least the expansion of the U.S.

Now this is only my opinion but I don’t think they should be destructible in this game. Their settlements are moveable and what ever is left can pick up and relocate. Sort of like the Pope, or the Mongols in MIITW. At some point they may be impotent but not destructible.

[Sheogorath]

Ideas for Elephant Based Units:

Panzerphants - Elephants with a 12lber cannon strapped to each side. Mostly intended to fire grapeshot into infantry as they charge.

Balloonaphants- Elephants equipped with hot air balloons. Used to scout the battlefield and poop on enemy generals from high altitude, lowering enemy morale.

Submarineiphants- Elephants with tanks of air strapped to their sides, for amphibious operations. May also carry primitive steam engines later on. And torpedoes.

Trainiphants- Elephants with wheels designed to run on train tracks.

Elelelephants- Yo bro, we heard you like elephants, so we put an elephant in your elephant so you can ride an elephant while you ride an elephant.

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants - Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.

[Robespierre]

I endorse all these elephant concept-units, but don't forget the sound-system bearing cheesyquaverphant.

[seireikhaan]

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants - Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.

Brilliant.

[Jolt]

Ideas for Elephant Based Units:

Panzerphants - Elephants with a 12lber cannon strapped to each side. Mostly intended to fire grapeshot into infantry as they charge.

Balloonaphants- Elephants equipped with hot air balloons. Used to scout the battlefield and poop on enemy generals from high altitude, lowering enemy morale.

Submarineiphants- Elephants with tanks of air strapped to their sides, for amphibious operations. May also carry primitive steam engines later on. And torpedoes.

Trainiphants- Elephants with wheels designed to run on train tracks.

Elelelephants- Yo bro, we heard you like elephants, so we put an elephant in your elephant so you can ride an elephant while you ride an elephant.

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants - Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.

I wouldn't be too surprised if they implemented some of your suggestions, from the large numbers of EleFANts in the Total Wardom.

But I think you forgot two important ones.

Incendiary Elephant - Elephants which are set on fire to disrupt the enemy formations and to frighten them greatly.

Pyrophants - Elephants genetically modified by Alexander's physicians when he conquered India, to incorporate them in his army. Elephants who, instead jetting water from the trunk, it jetted the fearful genetically modified Greek Fire, the Elephire, which burned everything it touched on and couldn't be extinguished.

[Oleander Ardens]

It is nice to discuss this weighty issue with you, Fisherking, even when in danger to be flanked by a Pyrofant.

In 1700 the tribes were not broken anywhere outside New England. Only one war of consequence had been fought and that did break the two or three tribes involved. King Philip's War (1675-76). But it killed off close to half the white population of New England in the process, and they were still nervous about what could happen. New England of the time were only the three colonies of Rode island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. Those tribes were not eliminated but broken. There were other tribes that didn’t join in or were allied with the colonists so it is not like there were no tribes left there.

The tribes that were eliminated were those of the French Iroquois War and were eliminated by the Iroquois, but that didn’t mean France was without allied tribes.

Personally I think we should move this discussion to the Monastery, a more proper place to exchange historical arguments.

The number of casualities in the King Philip war seems to be heavily disputed, at least in the Wikipedia. Still it is sure that the Native Americans came off far worse in relation to the settlers, suffering up to disputed 7 out 8 dead compared to disputed 6 out of 13 dead for the settlers. Anyway this happened outside the timeframe of the game (1675) and in 1700 the position of the settlers was far stronger and the one of the Native Americans far weaker in the territory in question, with an ever growing number of new settlements for the former.

You point rightly out that the British and especially the French made great use of alliances, but try to make the case that this shows the weakness of the settlers. However it is quite obvious that diplomacy and trade enabled both to fight each other and other tribes with far fewer men and ressources than required otherwise and helped to enable the free flow of trade so important to both sides, especially in Canada. While not part of a grand strategy, this was partly "divide and conquer", used so often also by the mightiest empires like Rome, and surely not a dimostration of weakness.

At the start of the game in 1700 there are powerful tribes and all the Europeans were courting them for trade and diplomatic alliance. Most Indian Wars ended in settlement not eradication until after the American Revolution, when the power of the Iroquois was broken, but again and again disease even more than war was the prime factor. Even in the 1750s as you say, they were a potent force. Pontiacs Rebellion ended in settlement in 1763 with the issuance of The Proclamation of 1763 giving lands west of the Appalachians to the Tribes.

If they were so weak, then why would an ever hungry and expanding Briton do that?
The power of the tribes was broken by the end of The War of 1812 but up to that point they still were a potent threat, if not to the existence at least the expansion of the U.S.

The "Pontiacs Rebellion" was the most successfull fight the Native Americans put up in the timeframe of the game. It proved to be a costly affair for the settlers and especially the British crown, and ended with a settlement both beneficial to the Native Americans and the British. The British were not hungry to expand and even tried to stop the influx of settlers in territories in question. When the fight was picked up again by men with more vested interest in the region, the outcome was a harsh one for the Native Americans.

The fledgling United States faced serious threats from the tribes and fought intermittent wars with various tribes up until the 1890s.

Now this is only my opinion but I don’t think they should be destructible in this game. Their settlements are moveable and what ever is left can pick up and relocate. Sort of like the Pope, or the Mongols in MIITW. At some point they may be impotent but not destructible.

I strongly disagree with this statements. The existence of the USA was never seriously questioned by the various Indian wars which were ended when part of the vast superiority in ressources was directed against the resisting Indians. There were some great Indian victories, sometimes against greater number and testimony to their skill as warriors, but more terrible defeats.

The Indian settlements should be partly movable but certainly destroyable, as history shows us. The European settler destroyed many with brutal raids, killing often everybody in them, just like the Native Americans did.

A good discussion nevertheless.

[Intrepid Sidekick]

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants
- Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.

We do have these very high up the tech tree. But it takes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time to get them.

[Oleander Ardens]

We do have these very high up the tech tree. But it takes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time to get them.

Ah the mist of mistery thins - Sheogorath is a hidden deep throat sent forward in this chambers to spread soundbites of all sorts of to test the waters..........

Now it is revealed by an far too intrepid sidekick - I shall send my army of to teach both a lesson in humility, and to squeezes more info out of them...

[Sheogorath]

We do have these very high up the tech tree. But it takes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time to get them.

Awww, man. I hardly ever even got to gunpowder in MTWII.

Ah the mist of mistery thins - Sheogorath is a hidden deep throat sent forward in this chambers to spread soundbites of all sorts of to test the waters..........

Now it is revealed by an far too intrepid sidekick - I shall send my army of to teach both a lesson in humility, and to squeezes more info out of them...

SHHHHH! They'll find out!

[Sir Beane]

Here's my pachyderm-related suggestions, because elephants are the REAL point of this thread.

Elephant Impressionist

Sneaks into the enemy camp at night and assasinates their general by sitting on him in his sleep. The elephant then dresses in the general's clothes and takes command of the enemy forces. Upon encountering these elephant-led forces in battle you will notice the 'enemy general' give deliberately stupid orders which in fact help the Elephant Impressionists side.

Interestingly these units were already in place in Medieval 2 and were responsible for certain things such as the passive AI 'bug'. Also every enemy general was one. No one noticed until now though.

As for the enemy soldiers not realising that their general is now several metres taller, grey, and has a trunk? Well the Elephant Impressionist is really good at voices, and he had some acting lessons... he's just THAT GOOD, ok?

Elephant Militia

Recruited from the local population of pachyderms sympathetic to your cause. In theory a militia unit of foaming at the mouth mad-with-patriotic-pride elephants would be a fearsome foe. However it is an almost immutable law of Total War games that unless you are playing as an Italian faction then militia sucks, so these elephants actually have one attack, no defense and negative one hitpoints, meaning that they keel over the instant the battle begins. Useful for a handy field ration.

Elephant Pipers

A famous historical unit, so CA has to include them. These shaggy highland elephants are renowned for their skill with the bagpipes and their ferocity in battle. Raises nearby unit morale. Famously they marched with Bonnie Prince Charlie all the way to the city of Derby, where contrary to popular belief he turned round because he realised Derby just wasn't worth it. The elephants, however, stayed and started up a pub. True story.

Not Actually An Elephant

This unit is really a French nobleman in a costume attempting to escape from the revolutionaries in France. His plan backfired when the zipper got stuck, and he was drafted with a local herd into fighting for the war effort. Mysteriously effective in combat.

The Omegaphant

Upon completion of its training this elephant ends the game with a victory for the faction who trained it. How does it do this? None can say, there were no survivors.

[Sheogorath]

Here's my pachyderm-related suggestions, because elephants are the REAL point of this thread.

Elephant Impressionist

Sneaks into the enemy camp at night and assasinates their general by sitting on him in his sleep. The elephant then dresses in the general's clothes and takes command of the enemy forces. Upon encountering these elephant-led forces in battle you will notice the 'enemy general' give deliberately stupid orders which in fact help the Elephant Impressionists side.

Interestingly these units were already in place in Medieval 2 and were responsible for certain things such as the passive AI 'bug'. Also every enemy general was one. No one noticed until now though.

As for the enemy soldiers not realising that their general is now several metres taller, grey, and has a trunk? Well the Elephant Impressionist is really good at voices, and he had some acting lessons... he's just THAT GOOD, ok? .

Actually...

One might theorize that, by the time MTWII began, ALL the AI generals had been replaced with Elephants. Hence their general belligerence, stupidity, and curious voice acting. This also conveniently explains why Poles and Scandinavians had Russian accents. Elephants are notoriously bad at Scandinavian languages and are well known for their anti-Polish sentiments.