C'mon Ireland, you know you want to...

[Louis VI the Fat]

halleujah!

Pft. You only have thirty posts to your name.

I won't debate with n00bs like you.

[Tribesman]

Freedom is individual, not collective.

If freedom is individual then why are individuals throughout Europe not being allowed to vote on the treaty and why are those who do vote being told that their individual choice must be changed because the collective politicians don't like the individuals choice ?
If you think the treaty is so good then pressure your politicians to have a vote and let your individuals have their freedom of choice in this treaty....oh sorry that won't happen because the treaty would probably get a big NON like in most countries .

[Louis VI the Fat]

If freedom is individual then why are individuals throughout Europe not being allowed to vote on the treaty and why are those who do vote being told that their individual choice must be changed because the collective politicians don't like the individuals choice ?
If you think the treaty is so good then pressure your politicians to have a vote and let your individuals have their freedom of choice in this treaty....oh sorry that won't happen because the treaty would probably get a big NON like in most countries .

Their choice musn't change. Their wishes must be listened to and seen to.

The commonly accepted signal of the Irish 'no' is: 'Yes, we want an EU. But no, not the one proposed in the Treaty'.

So, one negotiates. What are the grievances, the wishes, the objections? What can be done to solve them? This is for the Irish and their European partners to work out, to see if a satisfactory and workable compromise can be reached. I really don't understand the outcry over a new referendum. This, in fact, is what politics is all about. Strip this case of nationalism, imagine that it is about an internal politicised subject, and suddenly it looks like a normal political process.

[Louis VI the Fat]

As for referendums, I dislike them with a passion. They are never about the issue at stake. And direct democracy doesn't work. If I need surgery, I will pick my surgeon, but I won't read the specifics of the case and demand the surgery happens in accordance with my ideas. That is a recipe for disaster.
If I go to a restaurant, I will decide my choice based upon the chef. I do not want a direct say in how he cooks my food. God forbid, no.

Likewise for politics. I shall be the ultimate judge of who is in charge, but I am much too aware of my limited understanding of all legal, economic, social and other aspects of legislation. And even if I wasn't, I have better things to do with my time.

[Furunculus]

Pft. You only have thirty posts to your name.

I won't debate with n00bs like you.

you call me a n00b? your from 2004!

[edit]

good post tribesman
not that i have much sympathy with direct democracy per-se, but in the instance of the state giving away its borrowed powers then i expect exactly that.

[/edit]