The Absolutely Best Heavy Cavalry in EB...

[Woreczko]

TPC, after reading this thread and thinking a little, I`m pondering on giving ap attribute to all melee weapons. Reasoning:
1. At high armour ratings, which are quite common in EB ap weapons are MUCH more effective than normal ones. If your opponent has 10 armour (for example humble thureophoroi) an ap soldier has a +5 attack compared to a regular one. That`s too much of an advantage IMHO. And remember, that there a lot of units, who have more than 10 armour...
2. It seems reasonable to me, that an ancient suit of armour would be more effective vs missiles (hence no ap for missiles save those, who already have it) than melee weapons. Even a heavily armoured soldier may be knocked on the ground and have his throat cut by a dagger.
3. Armoured soldiers would be much more vulnerable from their backs, where their defense skill does not work - which is a good thing IMHO. Keeping formation would be important for everyone.


This "solution" does have an obvius downsides. First of all, we will no longer have units who are more effective at killing armoured foes - less tactical diversity. Next, all weapons, which already had an ap attribute would need to be rebalanced (by increasing their lethality or attack)

[NeoSpartan]

TPC, after reading this thread and thinking a little, I`m pondering on giving ap attribute to all melee weapons. Reasoning:
1. At high armour ratings, which are quite common in EB ap weapons are MUCH more effective than normal ones. If your opponent has 10 armour (for example humble thureophoroi) an ap soldier has a +5 attack compared to a regular one. That`s too much of an advantage IMHO. And remember, that there a lot of units, who have more than 10 armour...
2. It seems reasonable to me, that an ancient suit of armour would be more effective vs missiles (hence no ap for missiles save those, who already have it) than melee weapons. Even a heavily armoured soldier may be knocked on the ground and have his throat cut by a dagger.
3. Armoured soldiers would be much more vulnerable from their backs, where their defense skill does not work - which is a good thing IMHO. Keeping formation would be important for everyone.


This "solution" does have an obvius downsides. First of all, we will no longer have units who are more effective at killing armoured foes - less tactical diversity. Next, all weapons, which already had an ap attribute would need to be rebalanced (by increasing their lethality or attack)

right and you end up right back at vanilla RTW killing rates.....

no offence but thats where thats headed.

[NeoSpartan]

I see where you are going with this TPC...

Although I am not yet jumping on the "big sword = AP" wagon, and I said "light troops" as an example (not claiming that running down skemishers was the role of catas).......

......I can see that, in the case of the Parthian FM, it does make sence if you are trying to simulate the other AP weapons they carried. Since the RTW engine won't let us. Other than that I am not convinced that long swords were armored piercing/breaking/trauma causing weapons by swinging them (unless you get a good swing at a guys head). You may have better chances at getting through mail with a powerful straight stab, but with plate (iron or bronze) forget it. And catas use small metal plates.

Another thing..... Be mindful that as a result of reducing attack and lethality to give a good working AP to Parthian FM (and not overpower them) they will be less effective against units such as the Theuroporoi (sp), Bataroas, Hoplitai, etc due to the lower lethality of the weapon, and the lack of heavy armor these guys fight with. (again RTW engine issues, maybe in EBII something can done about this)

[The Persian Cataphract]

Yes. For now, we are rather limited in the question due to engine limitations. For EB2 I am hopeful to say that there might be room for a lot of improvement stat-wise so that they are more dynamic instead of rock-paper-scissor arbitrary. As before, in the suggestion that I will soon be about to recommend, will purely be optional.

In fact, I will only suggest copy-paste values in the fix-thread. Those who want Parthian élite d'élite to remain highly effective against lightly armed infantry, can keep the default settings. Those who want the bodyguards, and indeed, even the recruitable elite cataphracts, to bear a closer resemblance to the three other high-grade super-heavy cavalry will have a reliable alternative to resort to.

[Watchman]

Random idea: alter the Grivsomethings' swords to have the stats of axes/maces such as the Hai BGs use. (-1 attack, AP, lethality 0.165) Puts them on par, and can be handwaved as *very* long and heavy swords with enough brute leverage for armour-cleaving to merit AP but duly a bit on the clumsy side as well. That, after all, is the tradeoff you get on that path of weapon design.

Long cutting swords aren't IRL what you really want to try getting through heavy armour with, but I do know they can to a degree be "optimised" enough for the purpose to do a passable job at it. Although AFAIK those designs were High Medieval and later European, employing metallurgical techniques over a millenia more advanced and benefiting from an unbroken line of trial-and-error developement harking back to the damn Hallstatt Celts... and still kind of fell kinda short against anything above heavy mail.

[NeoSpartan]

hey watchman is back! long time no see man.

[Cute Wolf]

Testing Bodyguards duel with their secondary weapons (with human (me and my friend) using double right click and pressing alt, done in multiplayer with a desktop PC and a Laptop) all formed into 2 men deep formations, and charge frontally each other) - using their highest stats bodyguards... (not highest price)

Pontos vs Hayasdan (11 vs 11)
1. Pontos win by luck (survive 2 men, hayasdan rout with 3 men (general dies))
2. Hayasdan win sightly (survive 2 men, pontos all killed)
3. Pontos win sightly (survive 3 men, hayasdan rout with 2 men (general dies))

Pontos vs Baktrian (11 vs 11)
1. Baktrian win (survive 5 men, pontos all killed)
2. Baktrian win (survive 7 men, pontos rout with 1 men (general dies))

Baktrian vs Hayasdan (11 vs 11)
1. Baktrian win (survive 7 men, hayasdan rout with 1 men (the general))

Saka vs Baktrian
1. Baktrian win sightly (survive 3 men, saka all killed)
2. Saka win by luck (survive 3 men, baktrian rout with 4 men (general dies))
3. Baktrian win in unbelievable state (only the general - the last fight was general vs general)
4. Baktrian win sightly (survive 2 men, saka all killed)

Conclusion : Hetairoi Kataphraktoi is the best...