Immigration Question

[Sarmatian]

But why should we accept them into our country just so we can spend money making them functioning members of society? Why not, instead, get immigrants with qualifications and just teach them English/German/Norwegian?

Because for some jobs you don't need qualifications. If you think that a university professor from eastern Europe is going to come to Germany to clean toilets, you're really in for a surprise. For cleaning toilets, you'll get a guy who doesn't have any qualifications. From my short experience in the US, I got the impression that no one had any problem with immigrants as long as they took jobs Americans didn't want. But, when they started taking jobs Americans actually do want, there's an immigration problem.

But, you guys are all forgetting that you need increasing population to keep the economy going. I remember reading that in the next several decades, EU is going to be short of about 20 million workers. So, like it or not, EU will have to import workers or the economy will suffer. I don't have the numbers for US, but I'm sure it's a similar situation...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Because for some jobs you don't need qualifications. If you think that a university professor from eastern Europe is going to come to Germany to clean toilets, you're really in for a surprise. For cleaning toilets, you'll get a guy who doesn't have any qualifications. From my short experience in the US, I got the impression that no one had any problem with immigrants as long as they took jobs Americans didn't want. But, when they started taking jobs Americans actually do want, there's an immigration problem.

Indeed. But in this scenario, we should take exactly what we need, and those who do come should have a knowledge of our language. This doesn't mean they have to speak it at home, but they have to know what I'm telling them. Say a grace period of a year to get a moderate grasp of the language, and if they can't meet it...

[Sarmatian]

Indeed. But in this scenario, we should take exactly what we need, and those who do come should have a knowledge of our language. This doesn't mean they have to speak it at home, but they have to know what I'm telling them. Say a grace period of a year to get a moderate grasp of the language, and if they can't meet it...

What's deal here? Assimilation or how good a job they're doing? If it some menial, repetitive job, like bring Box A to the place B, their command of the language needn't be anything special.

If it's some job you need qualifications for, like some managerial job - well, in that case those who don't speak the language (or are unwilling to learn it) generally won't be interested in the job, because in order to do that job well, quality of communication needs to be high.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What's deal here? Assimilation or how good a job they're doing? If it some menial, repetitive job, like bring Box A to the place B, their command of the language needn't be anything special.

If there is any chance of them staying in the country permanently, then yes, they need to have a grasp of the language, no ifs, ands, or buts.

[Fragony]

If there is any chance of them staying in the country permanently, then yes, they need to have a grasp of the language, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Mwah if it isn't a job requirement. If someone has made absolutely no effort out of being of any use then no welfare check when unemployed. Lefties aren't equiped to understand that when all your daddy wanted was an additional tit on his goat it's hard to be impressed by the poverty that is having electricity running water and seperate rooms for the kids and only one holiday a year, might be poverty to them and their comrades but immigrants are from the big tall.

[KukriKhan]

... but immigrants are from the big tall.

I think I understand the rest of the post, but that part has me confused. What is "the big tall"?

[Fragony]

I think I understand the rest of the post, but that part has me confused. What is "the big tall"?

That would be the world, a big place that supposedly covers even more landmass then the channels of southern-Amsterdam.

[Sarmatian]

If there is any chance of them staying in the country permanently, then yes, they need to have a grasp of the language, no ifs, ands, or buts.

What about democracy, human right...? You can't force people to speak a language, you can't force them to adapt to certain culture and change their own customs and traditions...

[rory_20_uk]

Not force. But not lift a finger to help. And if their culture causes a breach of the peace, causes offence to one's neighbours then these activities should be restricted by the police.

E.G. this discussion board is in English. All people are welcome - as long as they can read and write English.

Personally I think if you want to emigrate to a country you should at the very least not cause offence to the local culture - even at the expense of your own: I can't, nor do I feel I should be able to walk in Mecca enjoying a bottle of whisky along with a pork sandwich.

[Sarmatian]

Not force. But not lift a finger to help. And if their culture causes a breach of the peace, causes offence to one's neighbours then these activities should be restricted by the police.

E.G. this discussion board is in English. All people are welcome - as long as they can read and write English.

It's the same thing - if Immigrant A speaks the language and is assimilated he gets every right there is, but Immigrant B doesn't get anything because he isn't assimilated or doesn't speak the language.

If I move to England and start to work there, I'd be paying taxes the same as you. You can't take away my rights, either fully or partially just because my neighbour might be offended because I cheered for Serbia in England-Serbia footy match...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What about democracy, human right...? You can't force people to speak a language, you can't force them to adapt to certain culture and change their own customs and traditions...

You are correct - we can't force them. But we can deny them entry if they refuse.

[CountArach]

You are correct - we can't force them. But we can deny them entry if they refuse.

Which would be the definition of force

[Sarmatian]

You are correct - we can't force them. But we can deny them entry if they refuse.

Well, it's not something you can ask really - "Excuse me, but are you gonna assimilate in the next three years? See, if you say no, you won't be allowed to enter.".

I understand both of yours and Rory's point. After all, Kosovo is maybe the best example how grave consequences bad immigration policy can have. Actually, in the case of Kosovo, total lack of immigration policy would be better wording.

Mostly, I wanted to see how would some people here react, since most of the people is American/western European and it's as I thought - It's okay as long as it's happening somewhere else, but when it comes and bites me on the bottom...

The problem here is that it's very hard, maybe even impossible to have an effective immigration policy and at the same time uphold all standards of democracy and human rights... Americans have their diversity visas, which sole point is to give visas to people from countries that don't immigrate to US in large numbers and in effect keep US ethnically diverse. In other words to keep it balanced. The problem is it's not very effective.

Two solutions I see is:
1) Don't allow groupings - There's 30,000 Turks in Munich and almost none in Hamburg. You're a Turk, it's okay you can come to Germany, but you can't go to Munich, you have to go to Hamburg.
2) Have quotas for each county - 500 immigrants from Turkey each year, 500 from China, 500 from India, 500 from Russia etc...

But in both cases you're violating someone's rights because in case 1) you're limiting someone's freedom of movement and in case 2) you're basically denying entry because of nationality. In the first case, you could offer some incentives, like government sponsored jobs or housing. Immigrants can still go where they want but maybe they'll decide to go there where they have some benefits. But, it's a question how successful it would be, since immigrants tend to go where there's already a big population of their countrymen, because they can usually help them more than the government or some state institution.

[Husar]

What about democracy, human right...? You can't force people to speak a language, you can't force them to adapt to certain culture and change their own customs and traditions...

No, you can't force them but if you can't understand them you can not employ them etc.