Antesignani?

[Aemilius Paulus]

Such as? Do recall that the bronze cuirass is *the* highest-rated piece of body armour in the game...

Gah, people never understand the concept of relativity. For instance, most of the blokes on these forums will argue to death that their puny nation was just as important as Roma. I'll say, yes, your nation is important, but what you have to understand is that some nations are more important than other. But they won't listen and continue rambling on... Anyway, read my last post more carefully!!! I said that other troops with cuirasses have lower armour value than Antesignani. Now only this, but those "other" troops sometimes have leggings in addition to cuirasses and they still have a lower armour value. The Antesignani cuirass is rated unusually high IMHO, as most other troops have much lower armour values.

However, EB is not always so rigid in the unit statistics. For instance, high armour uber-elite units often have only 8 defence skill, while the levy Lugoae have something like 13 defence skill, with other "barbarian" unarmoured troops having even more defence skill. How can Lugoae have more defence skill than those elites?

[Zarax]

More armour = less agility = less defence?

[Aemilius Paulus]

More armour = less agility = less defence?

No, I have thought of that too, but some very high armour troops have high defence skill as well, such as the TABs as well as their Vasci and Ebherni equivalents have 11 defence skill in addition to about 19 armour.

[Watchman]

I said that other troops with cuirasses have lower armour value than Antesignani. Now only this, but those "other" troops sometimes have leggings in addition to cuirasses and they still have a lower armour value. The Antesignani cuirass is rated unusually high IMHO, as most other troops have much lower armour values.

The Antes' armour value should add up to 12, like that of every infantry unit with the bronze cuirass-helmet-cheekpieces combo. I repeat: please give concrete examples.

However, EB is not always so rigid in the unit statistics. For instance, high armour uber-elite units often have only 8 defence skill, while the levy Lugoae have something like 13 defence skill, with other "barbarian" unarmoured troops having even more defence skill. How can Lugoae have more defence skill than those elites?

The Lugoae should have base defense skill 11. Without
going to the details too much, that's the basic score for an infantry unit of their "quality grade" plus assorted bonuses pretty much all unarmoured units get (as Zarax guessed, on account of agility) plus the extra point some barbarians (in practice, Celts and Germans) categorically get.

Feel free to find me a concrete example of a high-end, well-armoured unit that doesn't have at least 9 defense skill (which is the base for "veteran" quality units; "elite" ones get 11...).

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

plus the extra point some barbarians (in practice, Celts and Germans) categorically get

What kind of? "Barbarians", like their civilized counterparts, were last time I checked ordinary fighters specially if we are talking about Lugoae, which are levies without any sort of drilling and very elementary skills regardless of their provenience. Celtic militias were never famous for their good training.

"Agility" might warrant the addition of a single point or two, but I'm still lost on how Hoplitai and the Cohors Reformata only get 8 while these levies get far, far more.

[Watchman]

Write that down to being, on the average, bigger and stronger thanks to more balanced and protein-heavy diet and healthy living in the woods. And I guess combative physical sports were pretty common too. *shrug* Hey, I didn't make the rules. I just cross-check the numbers add up like they should.

Also, I rather suggest you take a look at the defense score totals of, say, said Lugoae and similar unarmoured low-and-light troops and compare them to well-equipped and -trained folks like the Reformata and whatnot. The agility bonus - generally not given to anything with armour value over 8, IIRC, except some *really* elite bodyguard types - is there chiefly to allow for the fact IRL even unarmoured troops were actually sorta difficult to kill in hand-to-hand as long as they were fighting back; at least part of which was due to the certain benefits of nimble and unencumbered movements. (Properly designed armour doesn't restrict you much, but it *is* more or less heavy and depending on the design disallows a variety of posture shifts and whatnot.) Particularly the open-order types with room to maneuver.
Compensation, essentially, to fudge the system in order to get the desired results. I'll remind you it's not like the levies and whatnot stood much chance in a straight fight with quality troops regardless...

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

And I guess combative physical sports were pretty common too. *shrug* Hey, I didn't make the rules. I just cross-check the numbers add up like they should.

So as in the Classical Mediterranean. Of course, if we consider that Celtic lands were becoming gradually more urbanised in the EB timeframe, the larger urban populations presumably levied for war would probably live on some sort of trade or agriculture as opposed to the "in the woods" figure, whatever that means, and not much different from a Greco-Roman levy in "strenght" or whatever differential a rugged life could make.

But still I agree that given the limitations of the engine and such the figures are in general good for balance, however I disagree that such differentials between the skill of Lugoae and the line Greek Hoplites, for example, should exist for anything more than that, and just that.

[Watchman]

Eh, it's actually a question of local ecology, climate, population density etc. For example a 16th-century upper-class French traveler observed in his diary that a full Mediterranean meal roughly amounted to what was regarded as appetizers north of the Alps...
Plus, animal protein - a key "building block" when size growth is concerned - was always in a particularly short supply around the Med. Not too much to hunt, not much to fish in the sea, not that good conditions for raising pigs and cattle for slaughter... Conversely, north of the Alps there was far more of all of that (particularly fish, on the shores of the Atlantic and the Baltic) for much more dispersed populations.

Also, recall that the defense skill score does not entirely stem from out-and-out ability to ward off blows with your shield and weapon, but also general readiness and ability to simply get out of the way of attacks - something that's generally easier when not weighed down by armour. And also something you're going to pay that much more keen attention to when there's nothing to stop anything that connects...

Mind you, not every unit that under this logic was given the "agility" bonus due to considerations of inter-unit balance. Bataroas (the helmeted, shirt-wearing Gallic longsword guys) are and example, as the bonus would've driven their defense score total to a number unecceptably high for their price range and compared to some other, better equipped and hence more expensive, Celtic units. Botroas (the spiky-haired, topless longsword dudes) on the other hand duly got it.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

For example a 16th-century upper-class French traveler observed in his diary that a full Mediterranean meal roughly amounted to what was regarded as appetizers north of the Alps...

I would take that with a grain of salt, though. Cultural perception of food is not negligible and the larger use of meat north of the Alps as one of the main parts of the diet as opposed to south of it might have awaken the preconception that the more vegetarian oriented Southern diets were like the "appetizers" to the North.

Plus, animal protein - a key "building block" when size growth is concerned - was always in a particularly short supply around the Med. Not too much to hunt, not much to fish in the sea, not that good conditions for raising pigs and cattle for slaughter... Conversely, north of the Alps there was far more of all of that (particularly fish, on the shores of the Atlantic and the Baltic) for much more dispersed populations.

Take the face nutritional value, and many other important aspects to notice. First, the lack of animal protein in no way means a lack of healthy nutrition to the Mediterranean population, that even modern vegetarian diets can replace the protein lost with the lack of meat and that the supposedly larger "size" of Transalpine and northern populations, which is AFAIK supported by scarce evidence and samples, does not by any means translate into immediate battle superiority since no size or strenght will save you from being killed by a slashing sword or a piercing spear. I would rather say that the contrary is true: smaller and nimble warriors could dodge attacks better and faster than large and cumbersome brutes, if that's the model we would follow.

Also, recall that the defense skill score does not entirely stem from out-and-out ability to ward off blows with your shield and weapon, but also general readiness and ability to simply get out of the way of attacks - something that's generally easier when not weighrd down by armour. And also something you're going to pay that much more keen attention to when there's nothing to stop anything that connects...

I think that holds true only for the heaviest armor: mail and heavy plates and the likes. Leather and linen cuirasses seem light enough to allow reasonable movement freedom and do not hamper the movement of a phisically modest warrior as much as heavier armor would. And as for the "psychological" readiness, well, any line infantry would be aware that dodging is still 100% better than absorbing it no matter the circumstances.

Mind you, not every unit that under this logic was given the "agility" bonus due to considerations of inter-unit balance. Bataroas (the helmeted, shirt-wearing Gallic longsword guys) are and example, as the bonus would've driven their defense score total to a number unecceptably high for their price range and compared to some other, better equipped and hence more expensive, Celtic units. Botroas (the spiky-haired, topless longsword dudes) on the other hand duly got it.

See my post above: other than engine limitations I see no reason to apply the skill ratings as they are now.