Question About Cavalry in General, during Ancient Times

[Ludens]

L.C. Cinna actually posted that in a discussion on the TWC EB forum.

Thus, not really an option for the Classical lancers who in the beginning didn't even have saddles to work with. Also, I understand the "low and back" grip has the benefit that it's relatively easy to extract the weapon from the target after impact by rotating the arm up and back.

Out of interest, what kind of saddles do the Hetairoi and other Hellenic shock cavalry use in EB? Are they also using four-horned saddles?

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Yes he does mention of it as beimng previously posted elsewhere, thanks for the insight.

[Novellus]

L.C. Cinna actually posted that in a discussion on the TWC EB forum.

I had no idea that this discussion has taken place so many times already! What a mess!

[MeinPanzer]

L.C. Cinna actually posted that in a discussion on the TWC EB forum.



Out of interest, what kind of saddles do the Hetairoi and other Hellenic shock cavalry use in EB? Are they also using four-horned saddles?

During the EB timeframe Greek and Macedonian cavalry, according to the evidence (with one or two exceptions), seem to have used saddle blankets only.

[Watchman]

Well, that was around Alexander's time anyway. At which point the Thracians and Persians were apparently already starting to adopt the early frame-saddle from the Scythians. Given that it's a fairly helpful little item - what with increasing the comfort of both horse and rider and distributing the weight better across the mount's back, hence allowing heavier armour to be worn without wearing on the beast too much, and certainly doesn't hurt riding stability either - one would find it rather odd if the Successors hadn't picked it up in short order too.

I know the Germans refused to use saddles for really rather silly machoBS reasons, but the Hellenics AFAIK didn't have those going when it came to horse harness. Especially the more equestrian ones.

The four-horn saddle was more of a Celtic thing, wasn't it ? I recall seeing it mentioned that the way the things allowed you to "leverage" with your thighs and hips was useful for Crassus' Gallic horse at Carrhae in their rather doomed struggle with the Parthian cataphracts (who used less leaborate saddles) - since their weapon kit didn't make much of an impression, they apparently went for grappling...

[MeinPanzer]

Well, that was around Alexander's time anyway. At which point the Thracians and Persians were apparently already starting to adopt the early frame-saddle from the Scythians. Given that it's a fairly helpful little item - what with increasing the comfort of both horse and rider and distributing the weight better across the mount's back, hence allowing heavier armour to be worn without wearing on the beast too much, and certainly doesn't hurt riding stability either - one would find it rather odd if the Successors hadn't picked it up in short order too.

Only the evidence doesn't really support this. I only know of one source that unambiguously shows a Hellenistic cavalryman with a saddle, a 2nd c. BC stele from Apollonia, and concurrent with this we find depictions of cavalrymen unambiguously riding with saddlecloth only. It's a difficult subject to investigate because much of the time artists either omitted the riding equipment altogether or it is covered by some object (usually a large shield).

I know the Germans refused to use saddles for really rather silly machoBS reasons,

What source(s) is this based on?

The four-horn saddle was more of a Celtic thing, wasn't it ? I recall seeing it mentioned that the way the things allowed you to "leverage" with your thighs and hips was useful for Crassus' Gallic horse at Carrhae in their rather doomed struggle with the Parthian cataphracts (who used less leaborate saddles) - since their weapon kit didn't make much of an impression, they apparently went for grappling...

I don't know when the Celts are supposed to have adopted the four-horned saddle, but Parthians probably had them by the 2nd-1st c. BC according to a fresco from Old Nisa.

[Watchman]

What source(s) is this based on?

Caesar, De Bello Gallico(sp?)...? I understand he observes the German mounted warriors thought saddles a "crutch" unbecoming and unworthy of a true horseman.

Only the evidence doesn't really support this. I only know of one source that unambiguously shows a Hellenistic cavalryman with a saddle, a 2nd c. BC stele from Apollonia, and concurrent with this we find depictions of cavalrymen unambiguously riding with saddlecloth only. It's a difficult subject to investigate because much of the time artists either omitted the riding equipment altogether or it is covered by some object (usually a large shield).

Nevermind now the man's assorted body parts, clothes, armour etc. getting in the way. Most artists probably wouldn't have bothered, certainly, but that's not very useful one way or another. You don't happen to know of any archeology that might shed light on the subject ?

[MeinPanzer]

Nevermind now the man's assorted body parts, clothes, armour etc. getting in the way. Most artists probably wouldn't have bothered, certainly, but that's not very useful one way or another. You don't happen to know of any archeology that might shed light on the subject ?

With some sources the artist clearly is knowledgeable about what he is representing and we have all reason to think that he was not omitting any details. I don't know of any studies that have been published on this matter, so a survey of the depictions of Hellenistic cavalrymen in art would be necessary.

A good area of study is northwestern Asia Minor, because we have so many funerary stelae of cavalrymen from this region. The one depiction that I know of that shows a Galatian cavalryman (on a Bithynian tombstone from the 2nd c. BC) shows some kind of round saddlecloth or rudimentary saddle without any horns, while three contemporary stelae of Bithynian cavalrymen (who were entirely hellenized by the late 3rd c. BC), one of which is very detailed, show simple saddlecloths and nothing more. From a wider chronological and geographical range, we have, for instance, the depiction of a Hellenistic battle scene on a painted cup from Begram, probably deriving from a 2nd c. BC Ptolemaic source, and a 3rd c. BC funerary stele from Alexandria, both of which which are very detailed but only show saddlecloths in use.

[mikil100]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=110573


I asked this not too long ago, maybe some useful comments in there.