General Tactics

[Sir Beane]

This discussion quickly took a turn to the technical

If things get any more complicated you'll be in danger of losing me (I fall asleep at the mere sight of equations, being an English student.)

I have a nagging feeling that whatever facts and figures the historians and physicists in this thread come up with, Empire will use a much less accurate model.

As for Friagtes vs. SOL's. I'm guessing Frigates will fair much better in-game than they may have done in real life. Judging by comments and things so far the guys at CA seem to have a soft spot for the Frigate, I wouldn't be suprised if they erred on the generous side when implementing its stats.

[Fisherking]

I have a nagging feeling that whatever facts and figures the historians and physicists in this thread come up with, Empire will use a much less accurate model.

As for Friagtes vs. SOL's. I'm guessing Frigates will fair much better in-game than they may have done in real life. Judging by comments and things so far the guys at CA seem to have a soft spot for the Frigate, I wouldn't be suprised if they erred on the generous side when implementing its stats.

You could be right…

I saw one of the articles where an American 44 gun took on the line ahead of its mates. I think they said they sank one and boarded the ship that rammed them…a 64 I think it was!

I don’t think I would have played it so bold. Especially when it came to boarding a larger ship. Even with help on the way it sounds a bit too daring to me.


I would rather have a just rating than a superman unit…just do them justice.

[Sir Beane]

Since there will be a lot less naval units than land units I think we can expect more accurate and better balanced navies. Atleast I hope we can.

Another unit that might end up as a super unit would be roket ships. They seem to be mentioned a lot in previews at least.

[Tomisama]

Some things I hope you will enjoy.

BBC Animated Map: Battle of Trafalgar

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...rafalgar.shtml


18TH CENTURY FRENCH DRUMMING

INTRODUCTION

http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/search/HE09-3.htm

And if you have time.

DRUMMERS IN THE GARRISON

http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/search/HE09-12.htm

I never had any idea how important drummers were

[ConnMon]

A quick question on the topic of how units will fire, it was stated that there will be a button to initiate firing, right? So I'm wondering if you have to keep pressing the button or will they keep firing until giving the order to stop?

[CBR]

A quick question on the topic of how units will fire, it was stated that there will be a button to initiate firing, right? So I'm wondering if you have to keep pressing the button or will they keep firing until giving the order to stop?

Although no details are out I doubt CA have removed the standard fire at will ability.


CBR

[Fondor_Yards]

You can either use the normal fire at will option, or have it so they only fire when you chose, IE a close range full barrage.

[Ishmael]

i think ill leave it late in a custom battle or two, simply so i can see dead horses clobbering my men (to use the CA persons example).
That said, does anybody know what a good range is to shoot on level ground? For that matter, what were the accurate ranges of the guns at the time (yes, i know thats on the site somewhere, but i cant be bothered to trawl the forum)?

[CBR]

This discussion quickly took a turn to the technical

Hm yes I guess my post opened a can of worms...

I have a nagging feeling that whatever facts and figures the historians and physicists in this thread come up with, Empire will use a much less accurate model.

In the end it is impossible to get into too much detail anyway. There was a variance in gunpowder quality, density of shot and even different length of guns that rarely are recorded anywhere.

People back then seems to have focused primarily on overall weight of a broadside and that is also what some miniature rulesets are doing. With some minor multipliers for smaller guns and shorter range for carronades, is a fair aproximation of overall firepower for a ship. Of course a computer game does allow for more advanced stuff under the hood.

Although naval combat seems to be the thing that CA, fans and reviewers rave on about the most, it is my opinion that land combat will still be the bread and butter of Total War as naval combat just won't have the same tactical complexity. Neither uber frigates nor rocket ships are gonna change that.


CBR

[Lorenzo_H]

I want to know, for land battles:

Will you have to tell units when to fire? This will make managing large amounts of infantry fiendishly difficult.

Will (otherwise equally matched) infantry engagements simply be decided by whoever opens fire first?

[CBR]

I want to know, for land battles:

Will you have to tell units when to fire? This will make managing large amounts of infantry fiendishly difficult.

Will (otherwise equally matched) infantry engagements simply be decided by whoever opens fire first?

I doubt it will be different from older titles. There might be some kind of fire button so you can pick the precise moment to fire when you want to hold fire until enemy gets very close, but you could do that before too with fire at will off.

If everything is equal then the side who losses men first will not produce as many losses when he fires back. But it depends on % of losses from such a salvo and the randomness of hits.


CBR

[Oleander Ardens]

In the end it is impossible to get into too much detail anyway. There was a variance in gunpowder quality, density of shot and even different length of guns that rarely are recorded anywhere.

True enough. But as every gun was suscitable to such variances things even out among the calibers. Personally I think that the barrel of larger guns was (caliber-wise) relatively shorter than the one of smaller guns. They might haver used also rather relatively less powder to propel the shots. But still the momentum of a 36 would have been vastly superior to a 24.

People back then seems to have focused primarily on overall weight of a broadside and that is also what some miniature rulesets are doing. With some minor multipliers for smaller guns and shorter range for carronades, is a fair aproximation of overall firepower for a ship. Of course a computer game does allow for more advanced stuff under the hood.

Are carronades even in? So far I haven't seen them.

You could be right…

I saw one of the articles where an American 44 gun took on the line ahead of its mates. I think they said they sank one and boarded the ship that rammed them…a 64 I think it was!

It might have been the USS Constitution, which in reality was of course clearly outclassed by a SOL with 64 pieces unless in heavy waters. Perhaps CA has decided to paint things brightly, for all the colonials here

[Sir Beane]

It might have been the USS Constitution, which in reality was of course clearly outclassed by a SOL with 64 pieces unless in heavy waters. Perhaps CA has decided to paint things in a fashion more agreeable for all the colonials here

I have to admit this is one of my worst fears about Empire. Given how CA have favoured the popular factions in the past (Romans in Rome for instance), I'm worried that they might get a little carried away and give the US really fancy units with little basis in fact.

I can certainly CA the Colonies getting rediculously superior frigates and probably one or two units of sniping skirmishers that will have your generals head off before he can give the first orders.

Of course since CA are English and Britain was pretty big at the time I can see the same thing happening with them, but at least Britian did historically take a huge section of the world.

It's a bit too early for the Thirteen Colonies to be a real superpower.

[Fisherking]

I have to admit this is one of my worst fears about Empire. Given how CA have favoured the popular factions in the past (Romans in Rome for instance), I'm worried that they might get a little carried away and give the US really fancy units with little basis in fact.

I can certainly CA the Colonies getting rediculously superior frigates and probably one or two units of sniping skirmishers that will have your generals head off before he can give the first orders.

Of course since CA are English and Britain was pretty big at the time I can see the same thing happening with them, but at least Britian did historically take a huge section of the world.

It's a bit too early for the Thirteen Colonies to be a real superpower.

I wouldn’t worry.
I was half hoping to see the Ferguson Rifles in the SF edition, but they were not there…they could be in the game none the less…and they were British. Tech Tree maybe?

American Riflemen may be a pain for the British but they were militia and lacked bayonets so the best method against them is to charge with what ever you have…so far as I know. Native American rifles my be a different issue as they could have a higher melee value, though I am not sure they should, but perhaps stronger moral…

As to the American Frigates, they were extremely tough opponents and technologically advanced for their time, but taking on a 3rd rate or better would have been foolish.

I doubt that CA will take the wood used in these ships into consideration but at the time it was the difference between using regular iron and high grade steel.

from wiki
Live oak wood is hard, heavy, and difficult to work, but very strong. In the days of wooden ships, live oaks were the preferred source of the framework timbers of the ship, using the natural trunk and branch angles for their strength. The USS Constitution was constructed from Southern live oak wood harvested from St. Simons Island, Georgia, and the density of the wood grain allowed it to survive cannonade; even today the U.S. Navy owns extensive live oak tracts.

Primary materials used in her construction were # white pine, longleaf pine, white oak, and, most importantly, southern live oak, which was cut and milled at Gascoigne Bluff in St. Simons, Georgia. Southern live oak, a particularly dense wood, can weigh up to 75 lb (34 kg) per cubic foot (1,201 kg/m3). Constitution's hull was built 21 inches (530 mm) thick in an era when 18 inches (460 mm) was common. Her vertical hull ribbing was placed 2 in (51 mm) apart instead of the standard 24 in (610 mm). Her length between perpendiculars was 175 ft (53 m), with a 204 ft (62 m) length overall and a width of 45 ft 2 in (13.8 m). In total, 60 acres (24.28 ha) of trees were needed for her construction. Paul Revere forged the copper bolts and breasthooks.The copper sheathing installed to prevent shipworm was imported from England.
_____________________________________________________________

I figure the only reason they are included is because the game was first slated to end in the 1820s. They were not commissioned to be built until 1794. The American navy in the War of Independence built a few smaller frigates but was mostly privateers.

Are carronades even in? So far I haven't seen them.

I thought I saw them in one of the naval reviews…but which?

[CBR]

True enough. But as every gun was suscitable to such variances things even out among the calibers. Personally I think that the barrel of larger guns was (caliber-wise) relatively shorter than the one of smaller guns. They might haver used also rather relatively less powder to propel the shots. But still the momentum of a 36 would have been vastly superior to a 24.

Yes the general differences in gunpowder would even things out. But there are also national differences as well as improvements throughout the century. There is too little information to produce a precise difference in penetration between year 1700 and 1800, if there even was any.

And yes I do think smaller guns overall had longer barrels but especially for the smaller guns there were several versions and there appears to be very few records that tells us what barrel length a certain ship used at a given time.

A 36# would be better than a 24# but what if you are within a range where both can penetrate then how much better is it? Sure it has 50% more energy at identical velocity but does it produce an average of 50% more casualties and gun dismounts? Carronades did not have same velocity and energy but enough to penetrate at shorter ranges. At such ranges the regular guns could be double or even tripple shotted.

If one looks at surface area of a hole then a 36# has a 31% larger hole than a 24# and that might be a better indicator for casualties.

So there will the advantage of range for heavy guns where smaller guns might not penetrate at all, but also at ranges where not many hits were achieved, to short ranges where the difference in weight might not be the best way of looking at the true effect from hits.

Are carronades even in? So far I haven't seen them.

I don't even know if ships in ETW use different gun sizes so maybe they don't bother with carronades.


CBR

[Sir Beane]

I want to know, for land battles:

Will you have to tell units when to fire? This will make managing large amounts of infantry fiendishly difficult.

Will (otherwise equally matched) infantry engagements simply be decided by whoever opens fire first?

CA have confirmed that there will be a 'fire' button as part of the UI that lets you choose the exact moment your units fill the enemy with holes.

Remember the old saying. Don't shoot until you can see the whites of their eyes!