Not by a hair of my chiny chin chin....

[Mangudai]

Your lack of historical knowledge is astounding. For example:
1) The IMF has ruined much of Argentina's economy.
2) Nicaragua was completely destroyed by the US...
3) Haiti was completely destroyed by the US... multiple times...
4) Few would use North Korea as an example of a leftist government.
5) China has almost no shred of Socialism remaining.
6) See 2 and 4.
7) The Soviet Union had guaranteed jobs for everyone and there was no unemployment. With the fall of the SU this policy left and suddenly there was unemployment and subsequently poverty...

Yours is worse.

1. Argentina has gone bankrupt 16 times. They've been screwing up their economy since the 1880's. It has been ruined many times before the IMF ever got involved.
2. Panama was subject to more US imperialism than Nicaragua.
3. Like when Clinton reinstated the leftist president Aristide? The Dominican Republic has a similar history of imperialism and homegrown tyrants.
4.
5. Compare China to Taiwan circa 1970. China has been getting better the more it moves away from socialism.
6. yeah yeah
7. Your praise of the Soviet Union reveals your true colors.

Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

In case you haven't realized this yet. Taxation can only be established and maintained by force.

[Watchman]

If you haven't realized this yet... states and cohesive societies are ultimately created and maintained by force. Namely the gov't being able to smash any domestic challenger to its authority and power should it come down to that. Files under "sovereignty".

Well, it rather handsomely beats feudalism and bandit warlords.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Have I made it clear yet that the authoritarianism is on a scale?

[CountArach]

7. Your praise of the Soviet Union reveals your true colors.

You really haven't read many of my posts have you? I think that the Soviet Union had many things that were good about it and many things that we can learn from. However, I believe that the complete absence of Democracy was inexcusable. That is not a reason to completely ignore everything they ever did though.

In case you haven't realized this yet. Taxation can only be established and maintained by force.

...because we choose to give the government this authority... nor does it degrade humanity... I truly don't understand what you are trying to say...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Gentlemen,

The temperature of this thread has reached a level suitable for boiling enough water for my morning tea.

Please calm down, cut out the bad language, and respect each other's views whilst tearing them a new one.

Thank you kindly

[Hosakawa Tito]

That would be diplomacy: the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to making the trip.

[Kralizec]

You really haven't read many of my posts have you? I think that the Soviet Union had many things that were good about it and many things that we can learn from. However, I believe that the complete absence of Democracy was inexcusable. That is not a reason to completely ignore everything they ever did though.

Such as what? That it was a somewhat egalitarian society, spreading misery equally across the vast majority of its population while rewarding the aparatchiks who labour to make it so?

By the mid '80ties the only part of the Soviet economy that wasn't mismanaged horroribly was the military industry. The USA and Soviets usually spent comparable amounts of recources on the military, but in the case of the USA this amounted to about 6 % of the GDP, for the Soviets almost 50%.

Of course, the Soviet union may not be technically marxist because the point was to make the economy subversive to democratic planning. The Soviet Union however shows quite well that command economies don't work; wich becomes even more obvious if you realize that it had a massive black market economy wich more and more people turned to.

[Mangudai]

So the main disagreement is whether authority is justified simply because it's democratic. I say it is not. Since 1870 African Americans have been full citizens with the right to vote. Nevertheless they were subject to unjust authority because the majority of voters were unjust. They did not submit to this authority "blindly", they submitted because they were forced to.

I'm not suggesting that anything in our current political debates is anywhere near that level of injustice. All I'm suggesting is that democracy can impose unjust authority.

[CountArach]

Such as what? That it was a somewhat egalitarian society, spreading misery equally across the vast majority of its population while rewarding the aparatchiks who labour to make it so?

Such as its social welfare system and the affirmative action programs it had in place for women.

By the mid '80ties the only part of the Soviet economy that wasn't mismanaged horroribly was the military industry. The USA and Soviets usually spent comparable amounts of recources on the military, but in the case of the USA this amounted to about 6 % of the GDP, for the Soviets almost 50%.

And I don't like a command-control economy.

I say let me do things my way, so long as it doesn't affect somebody else.

I completely occur, but again - what is your point?

[Watchman]

It occurs to me Mangu's sounding a whole lot like he wants to have all those nice services a modern state brings - law and order, infrastructure, communal defense, all kinds of little things that improve everybody's quality of life etc. - without having to pay his part of the bill for it...

You freeloader, you.

In the US we have a program called social security which falls clearly in the latter catagory. Every year about 30 days worth of my wages are siphoned off into this ponzi scheme.

And I hope you realize that what passes for social security in the US is regarded as a really bad joke over here, where that thing actually works and does its job...?

[Mangudai]

It occurs to me Mangu's sounding a whole lot like he wants to have all those nice services a modern state brings - law and order, infrastructure, communal defense, all kinds of little things that improve everybody's quality of life etc. - without having to pay his part of the bill for it...

What it occurs to you I sound like bears no relation to what I actually said.

My first point was that socialism is not targeted at relieving the worst human suffering, it is aimed at social control.
Two points that emerged in conversation were: 1. Taxation is authoritarian, and every program based on taxation is authoritarian. 2. Democracy does not necessarily confer legitimacy.

Watchman has not argued those points, he has created a straw man. I never pretended a society could function with zero authoritarianism. I did say that I was willing to pay taxes to relieve the worst human suffering. Socialism goes beyond the legitimate functions of the state.

[Husar]

So if you ride a motorcycle without a helmet and have an accident where you get head injuries, who is going to pay for your treatment? Well, you I guess and what if you cannot afford it? Well, maybe others, but they cannot afford to donate because they have to save money in case they have an accident or an illness themselves, so the medics don't even come until after they checked your credit status because otherwise they'd be wasting precious money because the government won't give them any and people do not give to charity because everybody is on her/his own.

Wow, that must be a splendid capitalist system and hey, nobody is affecting anybody else.

[Mangudai]

Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

...because we choose to give the government this authority... nor does it degrade humanity... I truly don't understand what you are trying to say...

There is no question about whether force is involved, it's simply a matter of whether force is legitimate.

A small number of people think riding a motorcycle without a helmet is part of their personality and dignity. A large number of people think riding a motorcycle without a helmet is a bad idea. "We" choose to give the government authority to force everyone to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle. I say let me do things my way, so long as it doesn't affect somebody else.

Regarding taxes for social programs. If I'm required to pay for programs to support the truly unfortunate, that's OK, I won't complain. If I'm required to be a full participant in these programs, so that I must depend on the government for my retirement and my health care, I have a major problem. The former is all about helping people, the later is about control. In the US we have a program called social security which falls clearly in the latter catagory. Every year about 30 days worth of my wages are siphoned off into this ponzi scheme.