Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

No you may not offer your opinion as that isn't an opinion, just an uncosnstructive little comment.

Generally opinion is stated in more than one sentence, I might listen to you, and reply to you, if you can do that instead of using foul language.

I think it's a rather good summary of your opinion, as there isn't really any evidence that Hamas would stop.

[Watchman]

...as there isn't really any evidence that Hamas would stop.

The evidence for the Palestinian militants stopping their experiments in applied backyards rocketry in response to having bombs thrown their way has also, AFAIK, been somewhat hard to come by overall.

It occurs to me that giving them an opportunity to actually try to govern Gaza might keep them too preoccupied for a while to cause trouble, though.

[LittleGrizzly]

Its not really Hamas you need to convince, its the paelstinian people, as soon as thier grievances are met thier not going to support terrorists anymore, the terrorists are going to be the more extreme portion of the society so they're going to have extreme rhetoric, but like the IRA rhetoric it will cool down once they are negoiated with

[Fragony]

Its not really Hamas you need to convince, its the paelstinian people,

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

[Incongruous]

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

The only reason Hamas exists is to serve the grievences of the people of Gaza, they have no real political concpt outside of the people of Gaza. Hamas exixts on the idea of resistance, not conquest.

[LittleGrizzly]

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

Hamas does not exsist without the mistreatment of the palestinian people, without thier continued mistreatment palestinian people would over time come to accept israel is not the enemy. This does 2 things, 1) stops hamas recruiting new members (i don't think the ira really recruits many terrorists these days) 2) puts public pressure on hamas not to attack, and gives them no excuse to attack.

[Fragony]

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

Hamas does not exsist without the mistreatment of the palestinian people

Keep dreaming

It is really of no use having this discussion if it's has to be held witheen these limits, it's the leftist dogma about causes of terrorism, that cartoon I posted earlier nails it.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The only reason Hamas exists is to serve the grievences of the people of Gaza, they have no real political concpt outside of the people of Gaza. Hamas exixts on the idea of resistance, not conquest.

Actually, I think you have touched upon a profound point -- though my reasoning for that assessment may not dovetail with yours.

Hamas is the "ruling" political force in Gaza. They are involved with useful public works and they have -- at least by local standards -- commendably less corruption (a bane, possibly THE bane of goverment) problems.

Nevertheless, they have failed to really change gears from a force of resistance to a governing body...yet it is precisely that transition they must make if they are to -- on the larger level --succeed. They can choose conquest or cooperation, but either way they must rise to the level of true governance if they are to move forward. Without such a shift, failure is inevitable even if they do shatter Israel.


Israel should be condemned for doing the same-old/same-old and expecting a different answer. May play well to the home electorate, but it won't resolve anything.


Proportionality in warfare is, to some extent, a silly idea. A true quid-pro-quo is likely to kill everyone very slowly without achieving any measurable change. I'm not advocating a single bombing generating nuclear immolation of the entire nation supporting/harboring those bombers -- there are some levels of response that truly are counterproductive -- but simple tit-for-tat doesn't make sense either.

[Marshal Murat]

A desert?

Is this serious? I can't tell. I mean, seriously?
I'll admit that Palestine isn't a desert like Saudi Arabia, but we aren't talking about lush fields of wheat either with rolling green hills. Palestine is rocky, hilly, desert in the south, and has a Jordan River Basin that is lush with local water.

Source 1

Arab population also increased at an exceptional rate. According to records, about 18,000 non-Jews entered Palestine between 1930 and 1939 when there were more or less reliable figures. In the same period, about 5,000 non-Jews left. This does not count illegal immigration of course, or immigration prior to 1930. Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries, whereas in Ottoman Turkish times it was lower than in surrounding countries.

Really, prior to Israel, Palestinian history centers on Jerusalem as the site of Muhammad's ascent into heaven. I'm sure the great poets and mathematicians of Islam visited or lived in Palestine, but Palestine wasn't and isn't known as a source of geniuses or philosophers.

Source 2

The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. The discovery of sea routes to the East began to erode the importance of the Middle East to commerce. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. The Ottoman tax system was ruinous and did much to keep the land underdeveloped and the population small.

So don't give me crap about not understanding all about Palestine. Clearly we both have areas that need some growth, but seriously, grow up.

But to get back to the original topic.
I can only hope that Israel has accomplished it's goals. We've let them bomb Gaza, take it to the streets, and prevent rocket attacks for the next couple weeks, maybe months. Ceasefire that both sides can agree on.

I would be the first to suggest that Israel allow an open border, somewhere. I don't understand why Egypt is so very anti-Gaza. Explanation please?