Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So let me get this right, if britian manages to invade a country and take it over successfully today, then tommorrow the residents have no more valid claims on the lands because you now we'd have to go through 1000's of years of history giving everyone thier land back.... Great!...

Griz:

Despite some opposition to the notion, throughout the majority of recorded history, "by right of conquest" has been viewed as a legitimate means of determining national ownership of a particular piece of real estate. It is only in very recent human history that conquest has been broadly repudiated (at least officially) as a means of determining ownership of territory. The conqueror's claim to ownership were deemed voided if it were conquered by someone else or a successful rebellion was staged.

[Fragony]

The thing with killing high Hamas officials is that they usually fill up the spot after the assassination. Hence you get absolutely nowhere because there's always someone to fill the position, possibly more fanatic and cunning than his predecessor. And you can't kill them all anyway, since Irael will never use it's nuclear weapon in this struggle.

Works for Iraq, despite the ideological wardrums it's a better place then it ever was. And I couldn't give a anyway, and that doesn't matter anyway, if we didn't give a somebody else wouldn't care, rubbing them up at the wrong places. And Israel will use it's nuclair weapon when it feels it has to, make no mistake this is the situation this is every bit as bad as the cold war this can turn very very badly and it probably will.

[Tribesman]

it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.

Really ?

it was british land

You fall at the first step .

arabs owned very little of it

bloody hell should you have even entered the race ? you fall again , it was the Jews and Jewish agency that owned very little , depending on whose figures you use they owned between 6&8% of the land

the brits can do whatever they want to it

start with something simple like reading the terms of the mandate , then maybe go earlier and read the provisional mandate .

and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is

You remember mentioning research earlier , perhaps you might try some

[Fragony]

So the alternative history.... it just isn't true, part one;":creation cause and effect, a complete history"

[Banquo's Ghost]

It is strange that some posters who support the Israeli actions seem to be keen on Fatah. After all, they are hardly clean of blood.

Not that it matters, as Israel is neatly undermining them and strengthening their enemy, Hamas. Just as they have done every time they have tried this military destruction rather than addressing realistic negotiations.

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements. This existing frustration –which helped Hamas defeat Mr Abbas's Fatah movement in the 2006 elections – is now combined with popular anger and dismay at the carnage among fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

It has long been my position that the Palestinians should protest non-violently, in the belief that such resistance would finally invoke the consciences of those who hold power. Having taken note of the cynics, I have held to that belief in spite of mounting evidence of its naïveté.

Several instances during this campaign have caused me to question whether in fact, the Israeli forces and government have now crossed the line into considering their opponents entirely sub-human and undeserving of humanity. Not the militants, but every last person.

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

The ICRC is very rarely pushed to criticising the activities of combatants publicly and is regarded as completely neutral by governments around the world, so the chants of bias being readied fail.

There is no excuse for these acts, and Israel, no doubt will have another series of government enquiries that will condemn their actions - and get ignored ready for the next time. Equally without doubt is that some here will excuse them as being in a war, but this is not a mediaeval totalwar computer simulation and Israel is a state with ratified treaties committing itself to international law and its observance. The saddest irony is that much of the development of international conflict law was generated by the atrocities perpetrated on their own forebears.

Once dehumanisation is in place, there is no choice but armed struggle, because one cannot "negotiate" with animals. The Palestinian terror groups have long made this mistake, treating Israelis with utter disdain, as if all are faceless imperialists. Sadly, it seems the circle is now complete - and in the hearts of the one people on God's green earth that should know better.

[LittleGrizzly]

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements.

Which is why abandoning terrorism is fairly pointless for the palestinians, they come off even worse when both sides turn to violence, but at least they get to cut the enemy and get a leg blown off in return, rather than sitting there and being bled whilst doing nothing...

Out of interest why if Fatah and mr Abbas are something better do the israelis continue to do exactly as they please ? is it because terrorism was just an excuse for the land and resource grabbing israel has practiced since its exsistence...

Edit: getting round to the rest of the points shortly, just needed to say this one now...

[Ronin]

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

this is hardly surprising to me....I have been to Israel twice on work, and both times I stayed there for about a month's time.
I work in the IT business and the sort of things I heard about the Palestinians from the Israelis I was working with led me to believe that they simply didn´t have any regard for them as human beings, and these were highly educated people I was working with.
The kind of things I was told, poorly disguised in the jokes I would hear at lunch time, could only be characterized as racism in any other country I have ever been in.

[Guildenstern]

It sounds like the Israelis have never heard of nor adopted the concept of ROE (Rules Of Engagement). If the Israelis did have Rules Of Engagement, they might have been ignored or they might have been so simplistic that anything goes. I'm guessing it is the latter based upon incidents such as the ones posted by Banquo's Ghost.

Do Israeli Rules Of Engagement exist or not?
Are civilians fair targets for Israeli soldiers or not?

[Hooahguy]

It sounds like the Israelis have never heard of nor adopted the concept of ROE (Rules Of Engagement). If the Israelis did have Rules Of Engagement, they might have been ignored or they might have been so simplistic that anything goes. I'm guessing it is the latter based upon incidents such as the ones posted by Banquo's Ghost.

Do Israeli Rules Of Engagement exist or not?
Are civilians fair targets for Israeli soldiers or not?

no, there definitly are RoE for the IDF, but they are much more lenient than the american one.
and no, the IDF does not consider civilians, who are taking no part in the conflict in any way, as fair game.
ask someone in the IDF. they will say EXACTLY what i just said about the IDF RoE.

[Fragony]

It is strange that some posters who support the Israeli actions seem to be keen on Fatah. After all, they are hardly clean of blood.

Sure but even when you don't have any bad intentions you sometimes have to make a choice. If you really want a diplomatic solution, why allow what prevents exactly that from happening. It's a pretty damn big comprosise to even make terms with Fatah, who's not trying.

[Hooahguy]

this is hardly surprising to me....I have been to Israel twice on work, and both times I stayed there for about a month's time.
I work in the IT business and the sort of things I heard about the Palestinians from the Israelis I was working with led me to believe that they simply didn´t have any regard for them as human beings, and these were highly educated people I was working with.
The kind of things I was told, poorly disguised in the jokes I would hear at lunch time, could only be characterized as racism in any other country I have ever been in.

this is also hardly surprising. most of the suicide bombers have been Palestinians, so its only human nature to dehumanize a people that blow themselves up, regadless of even if most of the people dont blow themselves up. i am friends with an anthropologist who is currently studying this.
i mean, if there was a group of people who was blowing themselves up to kill others in your country, ill bet your countrymen will dehumanize them as well.
its human nature.

[Xiahou]

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.

These incidents would be a lot easier to get outraged over, were it not for tendencies on the part of Hamas to use ambulances as troop transports and schools, hospitals and even their own mosques as weapons caches and bunkers.

[Banquo's Ghost]

These incidents would be a lot easier to get outraged over, were it not for tendencies on the part of Hamas to use ambulances as troop transports and schools, hospitals and even their own mosques as weapons caches and bunkers.

Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

[Incongruous]

Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

Is this taking?

Hamas are not terrorists, the belief that they are is a lie spread across the West by corporate media and general idiocy on the part of educated people. Hamas is a democratically elected movement which seeks to resist the Israeli attempts at ethnic cleansing (yes that is what it is called officially). Hamas do not wish the destruction of Israel

Israel is a racist aparthied state which has no business calling itself civilized, from its inception its main goal has been the further conquest and destruction of the native population. The ceasfire was an Israeli sham as are all their peace deals. It is a state on par with aparthied south Africa and Saudi-Arabia and the US look like a bunch of hegemonic imperialists with its blatant support for it.

As for Seamus' right of conquest, as if mate, stop making yourself feel better about your nation being one of modern day imperialists by spouting such . Israel is an American Empire by proxy and you know it. Without the US Israel would be a nothing, it such a shame that Obama will continue this farce called "Truth, Justice and the American Way".

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Awsome, you realise that you are talking tosh and so you descend into creating absurd diversions, now why don't we get back to the part where you said Hamas wanted to destroy Israel, shall we?

If you can't see the point, or more likely, if you refuse to, then I may as well drop it. However, yes, let's get to the part where Hamas wanted to destroy Israel.

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu'azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper.

Yes, an Islamic theocracy in the place of Israel. [sarcasm] Sounds wonderful. [/sarcasm]

And why don't we move on to peace theories, which you believe Hamas will follow?

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Since Tribesman didn't like my last link, he can have this one.

And if you say that Hamas has renounced or "reviewed" the Covenant, provide me a reliable link that says so, and that explains how it was "reviewed."

[Incongruous]

Why don't you go out and get a book? That is what I have done, I would advise one by a man named Khalidi.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Why don't you go out and get a book? That is what I have done, I would advise one by a man named Khalidi.

I have evidently not heard of this, so if I'm wrong, prove me wrong by giving me a link.

[Incongruous]

No, I usually dislike the internet and have read most of my info in books, if you are simply getting all your info from the internet then that is your problem not mine. I have suggested a noted author for you to get started on.

Or you could just read that John Pilger link I put up and go from there?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If it is information, it should be available from a reliable site, such as a university website. If you cannot back up your assertions, that is not my problem.

EDIT: You could also quote and give a page reference from the book in question.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

An interesting article from the Globe and Mail.

[Incongruous]

The only reason I can think that you are not willing to try for yourself, is that you are afraid of what you will find.

From John Pilger I doubt it would be hard to find.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The only reason I can think that you are not willing to try for yourself, is that you are afraid of what you will find.

Or because I don't have the book you refer to. I have already attempted to Google your claims, and have turned up nothing reliable. In fact, I've turned up next to nothing at all apart from the occasional blog, which are almost always rabidly pro-Hamas in addition to the fact that they are, in fact, not reliable.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I have found some articles on Hamas dropping the specific call for the destruction of Israel, but it seems that they made the move A) for political capital and B) isn't really stopping the call for the destruction of Israel. Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate, said in the article that:

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist."

EDIT: And that article is, unfortunately, out of date. Here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...29777020070312

So Hamas did, at one point, drop the call for the destruction of Israel - only to assume it again a year later.

[Tribesman]

Since Tribesman didn't like my last link, he can have this one.

Thats better , the real floridly written piece of crap containing piles of nonsense .

And if you say that Hamas has renounced or "reviewed" the Covenant, provide me a reliable link that says so, and that explains how it was "reviewed."

I am sure you can find your own link to first Marzug then Yassin and then Ranissi rejecting their charter in 1994 .

no, there definitly are RoE for the IDF, but they are much more lenient than the american one.

What you men like declaring that there are no civilians ?

and no, the IDF does not consider civilians, who are taking no part in the conflict in any way, as fair game.

Is that why they have to declare that there are no civilians ?

Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

It is becoming much harder to believe that last part holds much truth .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Thats better , the real floridly written piece of crap containing piles of nonsense .

You mean the original text in full of the Hamas Covenant? Yes, it is nonsense.

I am sure you can find your own link to first Marzug then Yassin and then Ranissi rejecting their charter in 1994 .

See post #743.

[Tribesman]

See post #743.

you mean the one with the un-named "spokesman" ?
Why not go with Hamadan or Masha'al you will like their ravings?
or for that matter why not go with Tamini who rejects the charter because it is racist and uses the forged protocols but believes in the destruction of the state because its one of those end of times things from scripture .
But the real irony is that those who rejected the Charter over 14 years ago got assasinated by ...errrr.....israel .
See Israel needs to keep the loonies alive so it can say that it can't do a deal with loonies
Israel loves Hamas in the same way it loved Arafat and Abbas , keep them frothing at the mouth so you can't do a deal then when they are ready for a deal find a new lunatic that you cannot do a deal with .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

you mean the one with the un-named "spokesman" ?

Tribes, it's Reuters, they're generally reliable. I've already quoted a Hamas candidate who said that Hamas does not recognize the right to exist that Israel has. The word "spokesman" isn't mentioned in the article either, by the way, it quotes a statement from Hamas.

[Tribesman]

I've already quoted a Hamas candidate

Which is funny since I refer to the founders and various leaders not "a candidate".

Mars a simple question .

a statement from Hamas.

What is hamas ?
A more complicated question .

the right to exist that Israel has

What right has Israel got to exist ?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Mars a simple question .

What is hamas ?

Oh, I'm sorry Tribsey, I wasn't aware that you didn't know. Here is a good place to start.

On a more serious note, Hamas issued a statement. If the Labour Party or the Republicans issued a statement, would you ask who the Labour Party or the Republicans were? Come off it.

What right has Israel got to exist ?

The same right every other state in the world has to exist, from the USA to Germany to Iraq to Syria.

EDIT: Here's an interesting graph:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ada_deaths.svg

From September 29th, 2000 to April 30th, 2008, less than half of the Palestinian dead have been civilians, whereas roughly three quarters of the Israeli dead have been. Some food for thought.

[Tribesman]

The same right every other state in the world has to exist, from the USA to Germany to Iraq to Syria.

Really ?
What is the legal standing of Israels right to exist ?
Can you see where it gets complicated yet ?
There is something very major missing in Israels right to exist , it goes all the way back to the 1940's .

On a more serious note, Hamas issued a statement. If the Labour Party or the Republicans issued a statement, would you ask who the Labour Party or the Republicans were? Come off it.

Oh dear, you don't get it at all , perhaps you should review the history and make up of the organisation from a more thorough perspective than Wiki .