Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[Lord Winter]

It's not bleak on the whole. Yes, it reduces the importance of this life, but compared to an atheist who thinks you become worm food when you die, it's really a pretty good message to spread.

Well I suppose your body will still become worm food, but you know what I mean.

Perhaps calling life a test was a bad choice of words, because God already knows the results, and we would all fail if it wasn't for His intervention. It's only because of the original sin we need to go through this, and its purely out of mercy that God gives eternal life. There's nothing bleak about that.

I just can't belive that God only uses this life to sort out humanity. Like you say he has other ways. Instead I belive that theres a purpose in an earthly life and it should be a time of growth and joy instead of penence and sorrow.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I just can't belive that God only uses this life to sort out humanity. Like you say he has other ways. Instead I belive that theres a purpose in an earthly life and it should be a time of growth and joy instead of penence and sorrow.

I agree it's useful for growth and joy. But we are born sinners, you have to be transformed by God for any useful growth to happen. In any case, you've got to admit that penence and sorrow have their roles. If we were perfect, we wouldn't feel them, but being born sinners it's always going to be a struggle.

[Lord Winter]

They have a role, but everything in moderation.

[Mooks]

I am trying to be a Christian. In the sense that I have a relationship with God, and I believe in Jesus.

But I struggle pretty badly with a lot of the stuff Pevergreen mentioned. Its such a dilemna - to know whether to have sex or not. I have concluded that if I want to get married to my current gf, I should not until then. I always struggle with it though - I have passed so many opportunities. I wonder if I should have taken them, or start taking them.

Take it, if you decide not to be a christrian your constantly regret it.

didn't really understand the last half of that sentence, however I will say that Christians don't try to live a righteous life to get close to God, it comes as a natural progression from knowing God. Once you repent, you grow to hate iniquity bit by bit, one step at a time. We aren't doing it to torture ourselves because we think it will please God - that would be achieving salvation through works! God doesn't care in the least for anything we do, we can't do good by ourselves, but by the goodness that He works within us.

I cant really debate this with you. Im a person who has been sourrounded by the religious and nonreligious. Both types of people have about the same amount of "goodness" in them. A belief in god does nothing for how nice, generous, humanitarian a person is. A religious person is just as likely to lie,steal,cheat and backstab you to get what he/she wants (even if he wants is for his deity), and most of the time able to justify it using their faith.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

I feel that this is a little unfair. Yes, in my experience many religious people are just as likely to fall short of some moral standards. But there are cases where faith in a God leads people to be more moral than they would otherwise be.

I certainly wouldn't say that in general religious people justify their indiscretions in the name of faith.

@ Lord Winter/Rhyfelwyr: To actively follow the moral code that Christianity is does involve some sort of sacrifice. For example there are clearly rules to follow. But I have to be more in sympathy with Lord Winter in that spiritual growth must be a major part of our existence. Of course penance and sorrow will have roles within that, but they shouldn't all encompassing. Just as there can be no corage without fear, there can be no joy without sorrow. Balance is key.

[Mooks]

I feel that this is a little unfair. Yes, in my experience many religious people are just as likely to fall short of some moral standards. But there are cases where faith in a God leads people to be more moral than they would otherwise be.

I certainly wouldn't say that in general religious people justify their indiscretions in the name of faith.

@ Lord Winter/Rhyfelwyr: To actively follow the moral code that Christianity is does involve some sort of sacrifice. For example there are clearly rules to follow. But I have to be more in sympathy with Lord Winter in that spiritual growth must be a major part of our existence. Of course penance and sorrow will have roles within that, but they shouldn't all encompassing. Just as there can be no corage without fear, there can be no joy without sorrow. Balance is key.

Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

And I was thinking of my brother when I said they can use their faith as a excuse. Hes a youth leader, and he certainly will lie and steal if it will somehow bring more youth into Christianity.

I agree it's useful for growth and joy. But we are born sinners, you have to be transformed by God for any useful growth to happen. In any case, you've got to admit that penence and sorrow have their roles. If we were perfect, we wouldn't feel them, but being born sinners it's always going to be a struggle.

Useful to whom?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

What's important is whether or not they live a righteous life gladly. One message conveyed throughout the Bible is the need for rules to guide people who may be less experienced in the faith. It's all about God transforming you, at first you may struggle to follow the rules, but if you persevere then you will come to live a righteous life without having to check you are following the rules.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

And I was thinking of my brother when I said they can use their faith as a excuse. Hes a youth leader, and he certainly will lie and steal if it will somehow bring more youth into Christianity.

Useful to whom?

Your brother clearly has not read his Bible, Jesus has a name for such a one, Hypocrite, and he pretty much damns them. They live for outward praise, and so recieve nothing inwardly because they do not give inwardly.

[Mooks]

What's important is whether or not they live a righteous life gladly. One message conveyed throughout the Bible is the need for rules to guide people who may be less experienced in the faith. It's all about God transforming you, at first you may struggle to follow the rules, but if you persevere then you will come to live a righteous life without having to check you are following the rules.

So if you follow the doctrine long enough it will eventually become 2nd nature? Makes sense.

Your brother clearly has not read his Bible, Jesus has a name for such a one, Hypocrite, and he pretty much damns them. They live for outward praise, and so recieve nothing inwardly because they do not give inwardly.

I look foward to seeing the majority of the clergy in hell when I arrive there. .

Also this is why Pascal's Wager doesnt work. Never seen the common rebuttal (your quoted post) from a theist though.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Never seen a case in my life of that happening. But if it does happen, the person isnt moral, he/she just following the rules.

You've not seen a born-again Christian with a shady past living a a good and moral life? Even if they are just following the rules, their faith in God has guided to follow these moral guidlines, making them more moral than they would otherwise be.

And I was thinking of my brother when I said they can use their faith as a excuse. Hes a youth leader, and he certainly will lie and steal if it will somehow bring more youth into Christianity.

To damn all religious people on the basis of one person, even if you know him well seems to be a little hasty.

We are all of us hypocrites, at some point in our lives, meaning to be so or not.

[Rhyfelwyr]

So if you follow the doctrine long enough it will eventually become 2nd nature? Makes sense.

Living your life by the rules is hardly enough to be an effective witness to others, Jesus himself said he was filling in the gaps left by the 'rules'. You can't honestly look at Jesus and say that he was simply following rules which he had ingrained into his head.