Archaeology in Germany

[Lucius Verenus]

I think what is most surprising is the actual size of the battle. I don't think anyone really thought Rome never went back into Germany after 9AD, but the scale of the force, as well as the distance from what is known to have been Roman-held territory at the time of the battle, is surprising.

As stated elsewhere, the Romans would have gone 'into Germany' on many many occasions on punitive raids of varying force for at least 250 years after the Teutoburgerwald/ Kalkriese defeat of Varus in 9 AD. The Limes, like Hadrians Wall in the UK were not hard limits as we think of them but controlled movement into and out of 'Proper' Roman territory.

The Romans raided or campaigned outside quite regularly, I believe that one (or two? ) of the three Eagles standards lost by Varus, were regained by just such an expedition in during the principate of Claudius.

Their contiinued activities in the Scottish lowlands have also been attested and many Archeological finds made. While the Roman Province proper may have been demarkated by Hadrians wall, their influence/ domination of most of the Scottish lowlands seems to have been extensive until well into the 300's AD.

All that said and pending more details, it is a fair distance from the nearest Limes to the site of this battle - it is also well east of Kalkriese too (though not as far east as their domination ran before Varus decided to listen to his good friend Arminius and go for a stroll in the forest)

Finally : A bit off-topic but If Octavians Adopted Dad had lost 3 legions, would he have pulled out of the area, or would he have raised 10 more and gone and chopped the whole forest down if necessary to get the 'culprits' ?

<some Cool sig will appear here when I get time to work out how>

[cmacq]

Actually, JC had the chance but turned it down.



CmacQ

[Lucius Verenus]

Actually, JC had the chance but turned it down.



CmacQ

Lol Fair go, ol Caius Jvlivs was just a bit busy - from his crossing the Rhine to his asassination - he probably would have got around to it after he finished off the Parthians (if Marcus, Cassius et-al had given him the chance that is )

Anyway, sorry and

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[Ludens]

Finally : A bit off-topic but If Octavians Adopted Dad had lost 3 legions, would he have pulled out of the area, or would he have raised 10 more and gone and chopped the whole forest down if necessary to get the 'culprits' ?

I've just read Caesar's biography by Adrian Goldsworthy, and he argues that Caesar actually let the Germans off lightly, presumably because he realized he couldn't occupy the country like he did with Gaul. There are no major population centres to conquer and garrison, so it was hard to make a lasting impression. Augustus may have tried to remedy that by building cities in the area, but Caesar didn't have the resources to do that. At least, not until he became dictator, and then he had other problems to worry about. Teutoburger forest would also have made colonization impossible for some time, and probably destroyed the enthusiasm of potential Roman colonists for this venture as well.

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Go to User CP (top left corner of the screen, just above posting rules) and select edit signature.

[Lucius Verenus]

I've just read Caesar's biography by Adrian Goldsworthy

I am reading that now, having just finishd his 'Fall of Carthage', an excellent source of information for the main period covered by EB.

Caesar is a fascinating figure on so many levels and sparked my interest after visiting Rome in 2007 and seeing the spot in the forum where the mob burnt his body after Marcvs' Anotivs's speech - does anybody know if there is a record of what his speech?

Shakespeare is rousing stuff but would love to know what BrvtVs and Antonivs really said that day

These might be my first posts but I have been lurking around the EB forums and playing for well over a year now - this mod is so good I am in the process of having a pc built that's good enough to run it 'full blast' with all the excellent mods and with big units, got fed up with minimum-sized units and 'reinforcements delayed' messages...

So big thanks to the EB creators

[Macilrille]

Some points.

As Hugh Elton rightly states the Roman Frontier is not ONE impenetrable border, a frontier consists of many overlapping zones. Administrative, culturally, militarily and mercantile. These did not just cut off at the Limes (or any other border at those times), but went far into germany (in this case). Tribes living on both sides of the Rhine for example would not stop communicating with their kinsmen just because there was a Roman "Border" set up, a border not in itself impenetrable but permeable. The Roman Army would have expeditions, outposts and patrols far into enemy territory- it is attested in our sources and that is the way it has ALWAYS been till modern times in border areas.
I would definately advise reading Frontiers of the Roman Empire (London: Batsford; Bloomington: Indiana UP, 1996) by Hugh Elton. It is scientific, not for the broad public, but people here should be able to enjoy it (after all by installing EB we have agreed to read more history, though in my case that would hardly be possible ;-) ) and it has much interesting scholarship. When I first read it in 1998 I thought, "Of course THAT makes sense!"

And for those of you who believes that Germania was nothing but vast forests, marshes and wilderness as described by good old Tacitus, it was not. Denmark at least- likely the rest- was fully agriculturally exploited from the First Century AD onwards. For elaboration on Denmark in the Iron Age- High Middle Age, PM me on palle.rasmussen@gmail.com.

As for warfare in Germany I advice reading Tacitus' Annals, Book I & II, I suspect not even Caesar could have subdued the Germans for the very reason stated above, there were no population centres and no infrastructure (seen through Roman eyes). IE nothing for the Romans to occupy and integrate in their system. And the population was fiercely against Roman occupation. With time the Romans could have done it, but it would have been a huge investment with no payoff worth mentioning, a deficit. If we come down to it no state sustains any operation of any sort that gives a deficit for long...
Thus Tiberius Caesar ordered Germanicus to desist his operations when it dawned on him that the Germans would NOT surrender and that keeping eight legions (~28% of the Roman Army) in the field against them was costly in men and money and would yield nothing.

[cmacq]

Some points.

As Hugh Elton rightly states the Roman Frontier is not ONE impenetrable border, a frontier consists of many overlapping zones. Administrative, culturally, militarily and mercantile. These did not just cut off at the Limes (or any other border at those times), but went far into germany (in this case). Tribes living on both sides of the Rhine for example would not stop communicating with their kinsmen just because there was a Roman "Border" set up, a border not in itself impenetrable but permeable. The Roman Army would have expeditions, outposts and patrols far into enemy territory- it is attested in our sources and that is the way it has ALWAYS been till modern times in border areas.
I would definately advise reading Frontiers of the Roman Empire (London: Batsford; Bloomington: Indiana UP, 1996) by Hugh Elton. It is scientific, not for the broad public, but people here should be able to enjoy it (after all by installing EB we have agreed to read more history, though in my case that would hardly be possible ;-) ) and it has much interesting scholarship. When I first read it in 1998 I thought, "Of course THAT makes sense!"

And for those of you who believes that Germania was nothing but vast forests, marshes and wilderness as described by good old Tacitus, it was not. Denmark at least- likely the rest- was fully agriculturally exploited from the First Century AD onwards. For elaboration on Denmark in the Iron Age- High Middle Age, PM me on palle.rasmussen@gmail.com.

As for warfare in Germany I advice reading Tacitus' Annals, Book I & II, I suspect not even Caesar could have subdued the Germans for the very reason stated above, there were no population centres and no infrastructure (seen through Roman eyes). IE nothing for the Romans to occupy and integrate in their system. And the population was fiercely against Roman occupation. With time the Romans could have done it, but it would have been a huge investment with no payoff worth mentioning, a deficit. If we come down to it no state sustains any operation of any sort that gives a deficit for long...
Thus Tiberius Caesar ordered Germanicus to desist his operations when it dawned on him that the Germans would NOT surrender and that keeping eight legions (~28% of the Roman Army) in the field against them was costly in men and money and would yield nothing.

Macilrille,
overall very well put. I believe if JC had followed the Swabians into the woods, he could have lost his entire army and possibly his life, as well. (SbS) Suicide-by-Swabian

CmacQ

[Ludens]

Thanks for the reference, Macilrille. I'll see if I can locate in the university library network.

Incidentally, putting your e-mail address on the internet is generally an invitation for spam. Apparently there are bot scouring the web for addresses. Only do it if you don't care much about that particular address.

[Macilrille]

It is OK, even though Google is watching me they also have a pretty effective spamfilter on Gmail, and since, a) I am far too complicated a person for their adds to ever be relevant to me (proving that they cannot fit me into their personality models) and, b) I have nothing to hide (well, I like young women, but not under 20 anyway), let them look over my shoulder as long as they protect me from spam.

Cmaq it depends, a large part of Varus' Defeat and Germanicus' de facto defeat was the knowledge and character of Arminus, there would need to have been someone with the same knowledge of Rome and charisma to keep the tribes togehter in order to beat Julle. Who was himself, by all accounts, an excellent leader of men and tactician. But yes I basically agree with you, and with Tacitus' assesment that it would be easier to beat Parthia then the German tribes.