Two ceasefires ...

[Incongruous]

You'll never catch me saying that Israel has been blameless in all of this. You're absolutely right, the settlements are an unavoidable obstruction to a path forward. That being said, Israel has proven repeatedly that given the right motivational prompting, they'll have them down in months if not weeks.

Yes, you're right, there are hard-liners in Israel. But the last time I checked, there was something like 80+% support in Israel for a sovereign, autonomous Palestinian state. There is the political will to make the two-state solution work, even if it means dismantling settlements. Some of the harder issues might start dragging that number down, things like right of return, water rights, arms agreements, the status of Jerusalem, etc.

I have no doubt that if President Obama went to Israel (assuming Likkud wasn't in power at the time) and said then the Israelis would move heaven and earth (and a load of settlements) to make that happen.

I do not have anywhere near the same confidence level with the Palestinians. I met a very intelligent, kind, reflective Palestinian in Stockholm last fall. He made some excellent arguments about the Palestinians right to exist, about the need for a stable state to check Islamic fundamentalism, which is apparently growing rampantly among the camps, which he bemoaned since traditionally, the Palestinians were viewed as being level-headed and moderate in the Arab world (so said he, not me). But when I posed the question to him of a two-state solution, his style changed. He was still polite, but his statements seemed an attempt to obfuscate. On the right of Israel to exist, he said "all people have a right to live". I myself could drive a truck through that statement, so I continued to press. At the end of the day, the guy, who was intelligent, rational and understood the ramifications of what he was saying, could not bring himself to say he believed in a right of existence for an Israeli state. I laud him on his honesty, but I ask myself... if this is where their most moderate, most tolerant viewpoints BEGIN.... can there ever be peace?

I do not believe the Palestinians, as a people, believe in a two state solution. I've posted articles before that Tribesman will disavow, but they come from the founding charters of Hizbollah and Hamas. They don't just deny the right of Israel as a nation to exist, they deny the right of non-muslims as individual people to exist, and these are the people the Palestinians chose to lead them. I know the majority of the Islamic world don't share that view, at least I hope they don't, but I don't see any sort of resistance to such viewpoints when espoused, and in that, I see a tolerance of intolerance that is very telling about future prospects for peace.

Excellent Don, have you been keeping up to date? Indeed have you read anything about Hamas recently? If so then you would know that some changes have occured.

Israel is utterly to shoulder the blame for this cock up, they pull out of Gaza and biuld fortress settlements in the Westbank! They steal more land! They biuld a giant wall and create a concentration camp! They shoot civilians in the street! They deny pregnant Palestinian women the right to medical treatment, in effect murdering babies!

How much evil will it take fro you Americans to kick these racist nutters out of power? You could do it in a second, the only reason Israel exists is because of you guys.

Israel has proven the U.S to be a lie.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If so then you would know that some changes have occured.

So you just ignored the Reuters link I posted in the last thread about Hamas still wanting to destroy Israel?

[Incongruous]

So you just ignored the Reuters link I posted in the last thread about Hamas still wanting to destroy Israel?

What link?
I remember you posting a lot of questionable links, and what am I to expect from a PoS outlet like Reuters? As if those guys give damn about the truth past the what their paymasters want, cover up and slander of the Palestinians is a well known trick of the Western Corporate Media, Reuters included.

But still, if you would point me to what you posted, I will read.

[Strike For The South]

What link?
I remember you posting a lot of questionable links, and what am I to expect from a PoS outlet like Reuters? As if those guys give damn about the truth past the what their paymasters want, cover up and slander of the Palestinians is a well known trick of the Western Corporate Media, Reuters included.

But still, if you would point me to what you posted, I will read.

It seems every link that has anything positive about Israelis or negative about Palestinians is biased. How convenient!

[Incongruous]

It seems every link that has anything positive about Israelis or negative about Palestinians is biased. How convenient!

Indeed, it is, tell me Strike had you ever heard the Western Media talk about the plans D? Or how about the time when it looked like sanctioned suicide bombings would be off the table, until the Israelis decided that would be an awful thing? Have you read about Israeli torture of Palestinian protesters, breaking limbs with rocks?

Indeed, did you even know that Israel is biult upon the ashes of Palestine?!
Shocking I know...

[Strike For The South]

Indeed, it is, tell me Strike had you ever heard the Western Media talk about the plans D? Or how about the time when it looked like sanctioned suicide bombings would be off the table, until the Israelis decided that would be an awful thing? Have you read about Israeli torture of Palestinian protesters, breaking limbs with rocks?

Indeed, did you even know that Israel is biult upon the ashes of Palestine?!
Shocking I know...

Why do you care so much? There are more deserving people. Like people who are actually being opposed instead of just perpetuating a cycle of violence.

[Incongruous]

Why do you care so much? There are more deserving people. Like people who are actually being opposed instead of just perpetuating a cycle of violence.

The Palestinians are not just being "opposed" Strike, they have been on the recieving end of what is officially termed genocide.

Why do I care so much?
Because not enough people do, too many educated people have simply become recorders for the sound bites of the brokers of power in the modern world, and too many have lapped up the lies about Palestine.

It is unjust.

Here are some links about our "liberal" media.

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=AJcxj_...ext=1&index=23

http://www.medialens.org/

[Lord Winter]

Come on Bopa, it may be bad but its not Genocide. Try to see both sides of an issue too, before you start bashing us for blindness.

[Strike For The South]

Genocide? Pah. They are fighting a war. One in which the other is better equipped and better trained. Simply because they are horrible at it does not mean they are victims of genocide.

[Tribesman]

Not that much in a hurry these christians and jews.

Really ?
Do you remember a certain poster here from London whose little signature called for the "end of time now !!!!!!!" ?
Which religion was he ?
Have you read any of the christian zionist stuff ?
How about those radical fundamentalists who want to (and attempted to ) rebuild the temple to bring the rapture ?
Then you have the fruitcakes like Koresh who wanted lots of guns for the upcoming armageddon .
How about Palins old pastor who was preparing for the imminent hordes who would flee to Alaska for salvation , not to mention all the kooks during the election claiming Obama was from the book of revelation though they were really funny as they must have some really strange translation of scripture to be "quoting" what they quoted ?
(the funniest of those biblical "quotes" must have been the one from down Georgia way who said that Rev:13 says "an olive skinned Muslim from Asia will rise to power in America and he is the antichrist")

So Frag , you have obviously had your head in the sand and when you say ...

Classical islamphilist response by the way

...as it actually demonstrates your usual islamophobia which you cherish so much .

breaking limbs with rocks?

Be fair Bopa , after lots of complaints and getting caught on camera the government did tell its army to tell its soldiers that they shouldn't go round breaking childrens arms with rocks and rifle butts anymore .

[Incongruous]

Come on Bopa, it may be bad but its not Genocide. Try to see both sides of an issue too, before you start bashing us for blindness.

Have you read the specifications for genocide?
Do you realise that what Israel si doing in Gaza is now classed as genocide?
Did you read that medialens report?

Be fair Bopa , after lots of complaints and getting caught on camera the government did tell its army to tell its soldiers that they shouldn't go round breaking childrens arms with rocks and rifle butts anymore .

Oh how kind of them, smearing excrement all over their schools is a better choice...
You have to love the humanism of Israel.

[Fragony]

Really ?
Do you remember a certain poster here from London whose little signature called for the "end of time now !!!!!!!" ?
Which religion was he ?
Have you read any of the christian zionist stuff ?
How about those radical fundamentalists who want to (and attempted to ) rebuild the temple to bring the rapture ?
Then you have the fruitcakes like Koresh who wanted lots of guns for the upcoming armageddon .
How about Palins old pastor who was preparing for the imminent hordes who would flee to Alaska for salvation , not to mention all the kooks during the election claiming Obama was from the book of revelation though they were really funny as they must have some really strange translation of scripture to be "quoting" what they quoted ?
(the funniest of those biblical "quotes" must have been the one from down Georgia way who said that Rev:13 says "an olive skinned Muslim from Asia will rise to power in America and he is the antichrist")

So Frag , you have obviously had your head in the sand and when you say ...

...as it actually demonstrates your usual islamophobia which you cherish so much .

Think what you want, I only care about what you do. That tiny difference between being silly and being nuts. If it is what it is then it is simply that. Look at what you have to bring up, how deep you actually dig to justify Hamas, and for what they want to kill an entire nation and it's people, now who is deluded.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The American fundamentalists want to destroy Israel as well, they just want to build it up first. At least Hamas talk a remotely straight game.

Those US Evangelicals are awaiting the rapture and as far as they are concerned Scotty isn't going to be beaming up a single Jew.

It's interesting about beliefs like those held by the Isaelis and Palastinians. To be honest I don't believe the Israeli people believe in a two=state solution, the Biblical Kingdom of Israel was four times the size of the current country. The Israelis might be willing to accept temporary defeat in return for long term completion of their ultimate goal.

Having said that the Palastinians are no better, though they arguably have far more right to be very very angry.

[LittleGrizzly]

I wonder just how many more victorys like this Israel can afford ?

Im not sure about palestinians will for the two state solution but i see the real problem lying with israeli civilians, i mean if they give the palestinians water it means less water for them, if they give the palestinians land it means less land for them, why give all this up when you can continue to discredit any peace deals or talks as the enemy are far too evil to deal with. Simply put i believe israeli's would rather kill and be killed than give up the thier advantages.

[Incongruous]

I wonder just how many more victorys like this Israel can afford ?

Im not sure about palestinians will for the two state solution but i see the real problem lying with israeli civilians, i mean if they give the palestinians water it means less water for them, if they give the palestinians land it means less land for them, why give all this up when you can continue to discredit any peace deals or talks as the enemy are far too evil to deal with. Simply put i believe israeli's would rather kill and be killed than give up the thier advantages.

I disagree, the Israelis are the victims of powerful and consistent propoganda to intensify an already dangerous situation. I doubt I would be break from such tappestries of lies, I would probably go on living and breathing ignorance. What Israelis and the West require, is decent men walking the halls of power, there are plenty of them in Israel. I know some who came to my university last year, they were men who had the courage to criticize their own people, for me that would be hard, for Jew it would be torture. But they did it and they have proven that Israelis can, if they try hard enough, come to decent resolutions about the Palestinians.
They mirror many Palestinians...

[Fragony]

The courage to sing the hyms of the leftist church? There is nothing brave about attacking Israel it's the salonsocialist consensus.

[Tribesman]

Look at what you have to bring up, how deep you actually dig to justify Hamas

That isn't digging deep or justifying Hamas Frag , it just shows how little you think .

who is deluded.

Good question .
Can you get access to one of those magic glass things Frag ?
If you can take a good look at it as you will find the deluded person in the mirror .

[Husar]

Of course I shall disavow that , unless you also mention that it is taken from Islamic scripture and both Jewish and Christian scripture also say the same about people who follow the wrong faith at the end of times (or mormons and scientologists for that matter) .

But (oh, look, I will now disagree with Tribesman), for me there is certainly a difference between "God wants us to slaughter them now!" and "God wants us to be nice to them now, try to convert/save them, but he will come later and kill them himself.".
The bible does not say christians should kill the unbelievers in the end times, it says God himself will send heavenly creatures/plagues to do just that, quite different in terms of how the believers are supposed to act.

[Fragony]

That isn't digging deep or justifying Hamas Frag , it just shows how little you think .

Of course not Tribes you are just putting it into perspective. Mormons and Hamas are really the same thing. Thinking that the end is nigh is just as criminal as blowing up a schoolbus full of kids. Building a temple for rapture is just as nasty as completely whiping out a country and it's people. Maybe it's a good thing that I don't think that much it isn't meant for everyone.

carry on

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But (oh, look, I will now disagree with Tribesman), for me there is certainly a difference between "God wants us to slaughter them now!" and "God wants us to be nice to them now, try to convert/save them, but he will come later and kill them himself.".
The bible does not say christians should kill the unbelievers in the end times, it says God himself will send heavenly creatures/plagues to do just that, quite different in terms of how the believers are supposed to act.

"If you hand offends you cut it off"? That, among many other passages in the Gospel and Epistles has been used oft times to justify Holy War, mainly on the grounds that the bad belief/religion could be used to infect good Christians.

[Husar]

"If you hand offends you cut it off"? That, among many other passages in the Gospel and Epistles has been used oft times to justify Holy War, mainly on the grounds that the bad belief/religion could be used to infect good Christians.

Well, if you take it like that then atheism is dangerous as well if you take survival of the fittest to mean you have to kill all the other weaklings.

[Tribesman]

Maybe it's a good thing that I don't think that much it isn't meant for everyone.

I hadn't noticed

Building a temple for rapture is just as nasty as completely whiping out a country and it's people.

If the intention is the same then it is equally as nasty .

[Fragony]

If the intention is the same then it is equally as nasty .

Yeah Tribes of course, might seem odd to you but if someone is keen on praying me to death I don't really mind that much, it's cute. Not so cute, blowing up busses with children, and desiring the complete extermination of a country and it's people, and if that wasn't enough they must kill them wherever they find them, so even the trees and stones they are hiding behind will cry out 'A JEW'!
Why the nuance? Why the need to put something as sick as that into perspective? Why can't you come to terms with Hamas being absolute sickos (who have killed more palestinians then Israel could ever hope to)? They put their money where their mouth is, there isn't anything they wouldn't do, they use children and pregnant women as human shields, they (the democratically elected government olol) hold mass executions of political adversaries, wall BLAM RATATATATA. Why the love? I will never accuse you of antisemitism, pretty sure you aren't one and are just amazed, but are you really making a point or just trying to win a discussion.

[Pannonian]

Having said that the Palastinians are no better, though they arguably have far more right to be very very angry.

Ceasefire or no ceasefire, both sides are making war on each other. The Palestinians are doing so with exceedingly unwise PR though, by trying to blow Israelis up. The Israelis, OTOH, are doing so more insidiously, by taking Palestinian land. Ironically, historically, killing another kingdom's people could be papered over, with some suitable compensation and sweet talking, but landgrabbing was seen as a far more serious casus belli.

[Fragony]

Ceasefire or no ceasefire, both sides are making war on each other. The Palestinians are doing so with exceedingly unwise PR though, by trying to blow Israelis up.

Oh? That unwise? Nobody gives a crap about blown up Israeli's 'they had it comming because they [insert accusation here]'. It's what is behind this conflict that is winning the propaganda-war, look at all the hugs and kisses these get.

[Pannonian]

Oh? That unwise? Nobody gives a crap about blown up Israeli's 'they had it comming because they [insert accusation here]'. It's what is behind this conflict that is winning the propaganda-war, look at all the hugs and kisses these get.

That's part of the blowing up Israelis bit, in that their method of pursuing the war is geared towards blowing up Israelis, while the Israeli method of pursuing the war is to annex more Palestinian land.

[Hooahguy]

Have you read the specifications for genocide?
Do you realise that what Israel si doing in Gaza is now classed as genocide?
Did you read that medialens report?

wait.... let me get this straight.... you think israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians?
according to webster, the definition of genocide is:

the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

lets see. we arent rounding up Palestinians and killing them. we arent massacring israeli Palestinians, and they have rights and can vote and can bring cases to the supreme court of israel.
that, my friend, is not genocide. if it really was genocide, then arabs in israel would be rounded up and killed. but they arent.

and who classes the situation in gaza a genocide? colin powell? the UN? who else wants to condemn israel when there are really serious human rights abuses in china and such countries, apartheid for women in arab countries, and they say little about that.

you may say because israel is a democracy, it mjust act better, but my good sir, a nation is a nation. just because a country may be a dictatorship, does not make it less responsible for human rights violations. in fact, Professor Irwin Cotler, a leading scholar in human rights said that the singling out of Israel for differential and discriminatory treatment in the international arena is a modern form of anti-semitism. if you want ill post the other eight sets of modern anti-semitism which he identifies.

let me be clear- i acknowledge that israel has committed human rights abuses, and i condemn them. it was wrong that they did them and nothing can excuse the abuses. but to overly condemn them and much less other countries is just wrong. one who is truly for human rights would be equal to all countries in terms of condemnation.

o ya, about that medialens report, medialens is known to be biased, just like CAMERA can be. you dont let me use CAMERA but you use medialens?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

and who classes the situation in gaza a genocide?

John Pilger I suppose, who Bopa trusts over the entire "mainstream Western media." This has the probably not unintentional effect of rendering our sources effectively useless, as demonstrated above.

[Pannonian]

wait.... let me get this straight.... you think israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians?
according to webster, the definition of genocide is:


lets see. we arent rounding up Palestinians and killing them. we arent massacring israeli Palestinians, and they have rights and can vote and can bring cases to the supreme court of israel.
that, my friend, is not genocide. if it really was genocide, then arabs in israel would be rounded up and killed. but they arent.

All Israel is doing is just an old-fashioned landgrab, rather than genocide. Encroaching on the neighbour's territory, which, if they're strong enough to resist, they can declare war over it, and if they're not, they'll just have to accept it, or appeal to a stronger ally. A bit unfashionable nowadays, but not genocide.

[Hooahguy]

land grab? israel hasn't taken land since '67. but it did give back gaza, and i dont think the recent conflict was to take it back.