Will ETW retail be a standalone version (no Steam install)?

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

As for the issues brought up with Steam in this thread, I can only say I haven't even had the majority of them in the last two years. When Steam came out with Half-life 2 it was a mess, but since then the team behind the service has really upped their game. The only time steam seems to suck up CPU power is when it's first initializing, after that it's fine from my experiences. The Steam servers aren't nearly as unstable as they used to be. I don't think i've been kept from playing a game I wanted to play with Steam since the weekend hl2 was released. That's just me though, and my experiences do not equate to the experiences of others. Take the words as they are.

The thread I referenced in my first post is dated Dec. 2008, and has complaints from Steam users about CPU utilization of 50% - 60% while Steam client is running, so it seems like there are still a lot of problems with Steam.

The fact that it will apparently be required to install the Steam client in order to install ETW indicates that Steam will be doing something other than just being used for "activation" of ETW. There are more straightforward ways of doing activation without mandating the install of third-party software. Probably it will be required to have the Steam client running in the background eating CPU while playing ETW.

And probably, setting up a Steam "account" will involve giving credit card and other information to Steam.

Personally, I think it is kind of short-sighted of CA to partner with Steam, since Steam is owned by Valve, which is a competing game manufacturer. Even if Steam is paying CA some sort of spiff or kickback for every Steam account created in conjunction with an ETW purchase, the creation of a Steam account gives Valve the entire customer list for the Total War franchise. If Valve ever decides to market their own strategy game, they will have all of CA's customer information, including credit card information for all of CA's customers (which CA itself may not even have). Who knows what additional information will be obtained by Steam regarding usage patterns of CA's customers? What if Valve gets bought by EA or Microsoft? What will happen to this information?

[Sir Beane]

The thread I referenced in my first post is dated Dec. 2008, and has complaints from Steam users about CPU utilization of 50% - 60% while Steam client is running, so it seems like there are still a lot of problems with Steam.

The fact that it will apparently be required to install the Steam client in order to install ETW indicates that Steam will be doing something other than just being used for "activation" of ETW. There are more straightforward ways of doing activation without mandating the install of third-party software. Probably it will be required to have the Steam client running in the background eating CPU while playing ETW.

And probably, setting up a Steam "account" will involve giving credit card and other information to Steam.

Personally, I think it is kind of short-sighted of CA to partner with Steam, since Steam is owned by Valve, which is a competing game manufacturer. Even if Steam is paying CA some sort of spiff or kickback for every Steam account created in conjunction with an ETW purchase, the creation of a Steam account gives Valve the entire customer list for the Total War franchise. If Valve ever decides to market their own strategy game, they will have all of CA's customer information, including credit card information for all of CA's customers (which CA itself may not even have). Who knows what additional information will be obtained by Steam regarding usage patterns of CA's customers? What if Valve gets bought by EA or Microsoft? What will happen to this information?

CA are not the only company to partner with Steam. Many manafacturers have chose than route recently due to Steam being an excellent platform for online retail and multiplayer support.

You do not have to provide any kind of credit card, debit card or any other financial information to create an account. I don't even own a credit card, and I have an account.

Valve are not really a 'competing' game manafacturer. CA do not make FPS games, Valve do not make strategy games. This is unlikely to change in the forseeable future. Even if they did come into competition CA will not be at any paticular disadvantage because of using steam as a distribution platform.

As for 50% - 60% CPU usage? That is quite a figure, and one I can only see happening in extreme circumstances. I run steam constantly when playing game such as Half Life, and I doubt it uses even 5% of my CPU.

I can understand your concerns with Steam, but most of the problems you have given are based on paranoia rather than legitimate problems. Millions of people use Steam's service every day, and it wouldn't be that succesful if it wasn't doing something right.

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

CA are not the only company to partner with Steam. Many manafacturers have chose than route recently due to Steam being an excellent platform for online retail and multiplayer support.

...so since everyone else is doing it it must be good? You're not serious are you?

You do not have to provide any kind of credit card, debit card or any other financial information to create an account. I don't even own a credit card, and I have an account.

Well that's good to know, thanks.

Valve are not really a 'competing' game manafacturer. CA do not make FPS games, Valve do not make strategy games. This is unlikely to change in the forseeable future. Even if they did come into competition CA will not be at any paticular disadvantage because of using steam as a distribution platform.

Sure, they only make FPS right now, but the game software business is very volatile. Once they take a look at the size and buying patterns of RTS gamers, they may decide to get into the business. You are dreaming if you don't think that CA giving away THEIR ENTIRE CUSTOMER LIST to a third-party company doesn't put them at a competitive disadvantage. Anytime Valve wants to get into the RTS business, they can do so easily because they will have a ready-made database of existing RTS gamers. Not only will they have a list, but they will know which gamers are hardcore players, which are popular with other gamers, which are the best players, etc. Valve will know more about CA's customers than CA does itself.

And what if Valve ever gets bought by Microsoft (who make AofE)?

CA are clearly only thinking about the short term and getting an extra few dollars per ETW customer, IMHO. And next year, where will ETW customers go for information about the new Total War version - to message boards like this one, or to Steam's user forums?

As for 50% - 60% CPU usage? That is quite a figure, and one I can only see happening in extreme circumstances. I run steam constantly when playing game such as Half Life, and I doubt it uses even 5% of my CPU.

If you clicked through on the thread link I posted there were several different people posting about their own bad experiences with Steam CPU usage, including one guy with a 3ghz dual core having problems. That's not my number, it's what someone else posted on another board.

Millions of people use Steam's service every day, and it wouldn't be that succesful if it wasn't doing something right.

Millions of people use Windows, that doesn't mean there aren't problems with it. What is your point? Just because something is popular doesn't mean it isn't problematic.

[Sir Beane]

@ BeenPlayingSinceRTW

You make some good points.

...so since everyone else is doing it it must be good? You're not serious are you?

Yes I am. Games companies are businesses. They are more often that not run by businessman as well as game developers. They have people who have been trained and are paid to make the company money. And that usually means that if enough companies are doing something there must be some advantage to it.

I'm not saying Steam is good because it is popular. I'm saying it is popular because it is good. When it first appeared Steam was an experiment that no one had to use. Now it has grown and is used by many millions of people, that doesn't happen to products with fundemental flaws.

Yes, Steam has it's problems. Pretty much everything does. Steam works well for the majority of people and for the majority of the time.

You can quote examples of people who have had a lot of problems with it, but there are also many people who have had no problems (myself included.)

This isn't really something I want to make a detailed argument for really. I'm not a Steam employee, and I'm not a representative of CA either, so I don't have a reason to defend either company's business decisions.

My point really is that Steam isn't all that bad, and it shouldn't be a reason to not purchase the game unless you have some kind of serious technical reason not to (for instance no internet connection).

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

@ BeenPlayingSinceRTW

When it first appeared Steam was an experiment that no one had to use. Now it has grown and is used by many millions of people, that doesn't happen to products with fundemental flaws.

But why is Steam used by so many? Is it because they want to use it, or because they are forced to use it? (as CA is forcing ETW customers to use it)

Valve's strategy with Steam is the same as Microsoft's was with it's OS - to force-bundle the software with purchases of other products.

If Steam truly provided benefits to users, Valve wouldn't need to pay off game developers to bundle Steam with their products and force game buyers to install it and set up Steam "accounts". There's no need for every ETW buyer to set up accounts with Steam, when the multiplayer version of ETW will not even be in beta by the time the product is released (unless Steam is providing some sort of DRM)

[Sir Beane]

But why is Steam used by so many? Is it because they want to use it, or because they are forced to use it? (as CA is forcing ETW customers to use it)

Valve's strategy with Steam is the same as Microsoft's was with it's OS - to force-bundle the software with purchases of other products.

If Steam truly provided benefits to users, Valve wouldn't need to pay off game developers to bundle Steam with their products and force game buyers to install it and set up Steam "accounts". There's no need for every ETW buyer to set up accounts with Steam, when the multiplayer version of ETW will not even be in beta by the time the product is released (unless Steam is providing some sort of DRM)

Steam is used by so many for two reasons.

1) It offers stable servers and useful matchmaking abilities for multiplayer games, as well as Steam achivements.

2) Companies like it because it provides unintrusive (mostly) DRM in the form of online activation.

Buyers of the game are forced to set up a steam account in order to stop them from being able to copy the game and give it to a friend. Steam has the advantage over other forms of DRM out there (such as Star-force) because it is not overly draconian and it does not spy on your PC.

Sega are making CA use DRM, so CA chose Steam, which also gives them a useful platform for multiplayer. Personally I think it was the best decision they could have made. I'm really just glad that CA didn't go with Star-force. If they had then we would have seen limited numbers of installs, spyware and rootkits and many other significant problems.

[pevergreen]

Sure, they only make FPS right now, but the game software business is very volatile. Once they take a look at the size and buying patterns of RTS gamers, they may decide to get into the business. You are dreaming if you don't think that CA giving away THEIR ENTIRE CUSTOMER LIST to a third-party company doesn't put them at a competitive disadvantage. Anytime Valve wants to get into the RTS business, they can do so easily because they will have a ready-made database of existing RTS gamers. Not only will they have a list, but they will know which gamers are hardcore players, which are popular with other gamers, which are the best players, etc. Valve will know more about CA's customers than CA does itself.

Dear friend, I think you are missing the point of human choice?

If a FPS company suddenly comes out into a field they have no experience of, just because we all may be using steam, does that mean every single one of us is going to go out and buy their new game?

They don't have a readymade database, they have a group of users that play Empire: Total War. Valve cannot go "Buy and play our RTS or we won't let you use software that isnt ours like steam."

Can Valve go through and see private details? You are kidding yourself, dear sir.

[Polemists]

Let's all be calm.


I don't even like steam, just read my posts, but there is no evidence you have to keep the client running to play the game. So far, all CA posts have indicated you set up a account, log in once to register it/activate it, then you can close it and play offline. It's a one time online activation. So if you want you can keep steam running but you don't have to. It's no different then logging onto EA and registering a account and activating your game, except that this one requires it and has a program to do so.




That said.


I think to better understand steam and help the fan community a



DEMO



Should clearly be released

[Monk]

...


That said.


I think to better understand steam and help the fan community a



DEMO



Should clearly be released

Agreed!

[Husar]

Can I still play the game after uninstalling the game? I find games rather intrusive and they take so much HDD space, that could be an issue for some of us.

Well, I'm one of those who haven't had any major issues with Steam, it could be better but it isn't exactly bad as it is IMO.

[Martok]

And I'm going to say this again, an in depth discussion on DRM does not belong in this thread. I'm sure if we keep going off topic like this that the thread will eventually be locked or moved. Let's stick to direct questions about Steam, and leave the discussion of in-depth stuff for somewhere else.

Indeed. Let's please keep this thread focused on Steam as it will/may affect Empire. More general/specific discussions of DRM belong in the Arena or Backroom.

I think for me personally, my biggest concern is exactly how much of my CPU Steam is going to use. Given that my computer is -- by this point -- no longer considered "robust" (my processor is only a 2.2 Ghz dual-core), this is a non-trivial consideration for me.

Can I still play the game after uninstalling the game? I find games rather intrusive and they take so much HDD space, that could be an issue for some of us.

I have to confess, the first time I read that, I thought you were serious. I was worried about you for a second there....

[pevergreen]

Can I still play the game after uninstalling the game? I find games rather intrusive and they take so much HDD space, that could be an issue for some of us.

So this is why CountArach cries to me late at night about you not loving him.

[BeenPlayingSinceRTW]

Can Valve go through and see private details? You are kidding yourself, dear sir.

(Dear sir? While I appreciate the kind words, there's no need to stand on ceremony, we're all just gamers here. )

You are the one kidding yourself, if you can't see that Valve will have access to every piece of information captured in the "account creation process". Name and email address at a minimum which is enough to do outbound marketing.

And if Valve/Steam is acting as the repository for online gameplay, they will also have information about all your online interactions as well.

If you read Steam's "subscriber agreement" closely, it gives Steam the right to automatically install any software they want onto your PC without requiring your permission, or notifying you that they have done such an install. The agreement also gives them the right to terminate your access to play ETW for any reason at any time. And if the Steam software ends up causing any problems on your PC, the agreement says that Steam has no liability...

Here's a link to the Steam agreement: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Steam is basically a form of spyware, from what I can tell.

[Monk]

And probably, setting up a Steam "account" will involve giving credit card and other information to Steam.

Personally, I think it is kind of short-sighted of CA to partner with Steam, since Steam is owned by Valve, which is a competing game manufacturer. Even if Steam is paying CA some sort of spiff or kickback for every Steam account created in conjunction with an ETW purchase, the creation of a Steam account gives Valve the entire customer list for the Total War franchise. If Valve ever decides to market their own strategy game, they will have all of CA's customer information, including credit card information for all of CA's customers (which CA itself may not even have). Who knows what additional information will be obtained by Steam regarding usage patterns of CA's customers? What if Valve gets bought by EA or Microsoft? What will happen to this information?

I never gave any financial information to Steam in the account process. Nor have I been asked for it since I've had my account active. You can give them that stuff if you wish to buy games through them, but since I don't want to do that I'm not required to.

Also a lot of game companies have partnered with Steam. For example, Relic is offering the Dawn of War 2 beta through it. This is nothing new.