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Thread: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

  1. #31
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What the hell? This is about integrating Hamas in the western world????
    Palestine. The people of Hamas can go along with it, or they can be purged. If they care about the Palestinian people and the Palestinian land that much, this is a chance to ensure the integrity of Palestinian land, the functionality of Palestinian institutions, and the prosperity of the Palestinian people. If the EU takes over direct control, the interests of the Palestinian people will be guaranteed by the EU. So any more Israeli incursions will be met by EU militaries, and EU measures.

    People moan about how the Palestinians never make a decision that satisfies them. So take direct control, so you make their decisions for them. In exchange, you also take responsibility for their wellbeing.

  2. #32
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Palestine. The people of Hamas can go along with it, or they can be purged. If they care about the Palestinian people and the Palestinian land that much, this is a chance to ensure the integrity of Palestinian land, the functionality of Palestinian institutions, and the prosperity of the Palestinian people. If the EU takes over direct control, the interests of the Palestinian people will be guaranteed by the EU. So any more Israeli incursions will be met by EU militaries, and EU measures.

    People moan about how the Palestinians never make a decision that satisfies them. So take direct control, so you make their decisions for them. In exchange, you also take responsibility for their wellbeing.
    So that all europeans on top of the Israeli's are to blame, no thanks. They already could have had everything.

    edit, bit much
    Last edited by Fragony; 01-25-2009 at 20:10.

  3. #33
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    So that all europeans on top of the Israeli's are to blame, no thanks. They already could have had everything.

    edit, bit much
    If we don't want to involve ourselves fully, and we're not satisfied with what we're getting for what we're investing, then why not pull out fully, and leave them to their own devices, and stop moaning about what they do? If they decide to blow up Israelis, that's none of our business, and we should leave them to it. If the Israelis decide to blow up Palestinians, that's also none of our business, and we should leave them to it. If we're not going to do anything about it, stop the moral outrage, and just let them sort things out for themselves. As I've said before, I'd be quite happy with locking in everything and everyone to do with that region, save for those whom we actually need (ie. the oil countries), and letting them live with the consequences of their actions, away from us.

  4. #34
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    What legal or moral authority do EU and US have to do that? It would be seen as occupation and rightfully so.

  5. #35
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    What legal or moral authority do EU and US have to do that? It would be seen as occupation and rightfully so.
    The ability to do so. It wouldn't be seen as an occupation, as it will be a formal occupation, and eventual incorporation. Annexation in other words. It wouldn't be morally right, but it would at least be more honest than the tut-tutting and constant undermining of all sides that is currently happening.

    Alternatively, as I've also suggested, we could fully pull out of all involvement in the region, and leave them to their games. Either would be better than what we have now.

  6. #36
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    well if a nation cannot create of itself a functioning nation state, and if the result is to export instability to its neighbours, then yes maybe the answer is annexation, but quite frankly who would be stupid enough to want the palestinians? (speaking from a geo-politics point of view).
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  7. #37

    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    well if a nation cannot create of itself a functioning nation state, and if the result is to export instability to its neighbours, then yes maybe the answer is annexation
    So you are saying to annex Israel .

    They already could have had everything.
    Yeah apart from the 67 borders , the 48 borders , the right of return , water rights , control of their borders and control of their money, control of the sea and air... but yeah apart from those little things they could have had everything

  8. #38
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    have i got that right?

    I was saying most people don't blame thier own goverments for actions leading to the attacks but rather blame the attacker (of them) which is true for almost all countries...
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  9. #39
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    If we don't want to involve ourselves fully, and we're not satisfied with what we're getting for what we're investing, then why not pull out fully, and leave them to their own devices, and stop moaning about what they do?
    I am not moaning they are being dealt with properly, it's the only way. It's the only way for the Taliban, it's the only way for Al Quaida, and it's the only way with Hamas. Some people just want to see the world burn. So burn.

  10. #40
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    So you are saying to annex Israel .
    no.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    One article from the very pro-Zionist Ulrike Putz doesn't necessarily give a true and accurate picture of events.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  12. #42
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I am not moaning they are being dealt with properly, it's the only way. It's the only way for the Taliban, it's the only way for Al Quaida, and it's the only way with Hamas. Some people just want to see the world burn. So burn.
    I'm talking about Palestine, not Hamas. If we're not satisfied that we're getting good returns from our investment, take it over completely so the returns will be in our hands, rather than filtering through via some middlemen. Or else just stop investing, and cut off all contacts. At the moment, we're telling the Palestinians what to do, but we don't want to go the whole hog and admit we're telling them what to do, and instead pretend that it's all in their own hands. It was in their own hands, and they made a decision, but we're now telling them off for making said decision, and that they should make a different one instead. If we're going to do that, why not just take over the decisionmaking completely? As I said, at least it would be more honest than what we're currently doing.

  13. #43
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    One article from the very pro-Zionist Ulrike Putz doesn't necessarily give a true and accurate picture of events.
    makes a refreshing change from palestinian victim-complex cheerleaders like the BBC.
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  14. #44
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    makes a refreshing change from palestinian victim-complex cheerleaders like the BBC.
    I'd say when you are a small, isolated and empoverished ghetto like Gaza being attacked by one of the strongest and best equipped militaries in the world - leading to over 1000 civillian casualties - you have some justification in the term 'victim'.

    Also this 'secret whispering campaign' is starting to look more like Israeli propaganda tricks. Lots of talk from key supporters in the media, very few actual cases.

    Meanwhile - news sources who do cite actually people in Gaza...

    UN Envoy Says Attacks Have Strengthened Hamas
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  15. #45
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Meanwhile - news sources who do cite actually people in Gaza...
    The article cites one only. And he is Irish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    One article from the very pro-Zionist Ulrike Putz doesn't necessarily give a true and accurate picture of events.
    Very pro-Zionist? Have you ever read any of her articles? For instance, would you call this one very pro-Zionist?

    Gerroffit, Idaho..
    Last edited by Adrian II; 01-26-2009 at 12:52.
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  16. #46
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    I'd say when you are a small, isolated and empoverished ghetto like Gaza being attacked by one of the strongest and best equipped militaries in the world - leading to over 1000 civillian casualties - you have some justification in the term 'victim'.

    Also this 'secret whispering campaign' is starting to look more like Israeli propaganda tricks. Lots of talk from key supporters in the media, very few actual cases.

    Meanwhile - news sources who do cite actually people in Gaza...

    UN Envoy Says Attacks Have Strengthened Hamas
    The BBC has always been biased towards palestine in the way it presents news coverage.

    And a Der-Spiegal news article is now automatically branded an israeli whsipering campaign...........

    The UN envoy can say what he likes, i do not hold him/her to be an authority on Hamas military capability.
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  17. #47
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Probably the best 3 step solution ever:

    1. USA has nukes. USA hasn't tested nukes on a real life, densely populated region in a lot of years. THEY WANT TO DO THAT.
    2. Send the entire American air force over Gaza+Israel, dropping leaflets that they are going to nuke the entire region in one week. The leaflets exhort anyone who wishes to live, to run like rats and leave everything behind. Phone to every home in Israel and Gaza saying that they are going to nuke the region.
    3. Nuke the entire region. No more Israel, no more Gaza, thus no more problems.

    Done.
    Last edited by Jolt; 01-26-2009 at 13:15.
    BLARGH!

  18. #48
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolt View Post
    Probably the best 3 step solution ever:

    1. USA has nukes. USA hasn't tested nukes on a real life, densely populated region in a lot of years. THEY WANT TO DO THAT.
    2. Send the entire American air force over Gaza+Israel, dropping leaflets that they are going to nuke the entire region in one week. The leaflets exhort anyone who wishes to live, to run like rats and leave everything behind. Phone to every home in Israel and Gaza saying that they are going to nuke the region.
    3. Nuke the entire region. No more Israel, no more Gaza, thus no more problems.

    Done.
    While I appreciate the humor, hydrogen weaponry is pretty ghastly. Let us all hope that no such weapons are used on this planet ever again.
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  19. #49
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I'm talking about Palestine, not Hamas. If we're not satisfied that we're getting good returns from our investment, take it over completely so the returns will be in our hands, rather than filtering through via some middlemen. Or else just stop investing, and cut off all contacts. At the moment, we're telling the Palestinians what to do, but we don't want to go the whole hog and admit we're telling them what to do, and instead pretend that it's all in their own hands. It was in their own hands, and they made a decision, but we're now telling them off for making said decision, and that they should make a different one instead. If we're going to do that, why not just take over the decisionmaking completely? As I said, at least it would be more honest than what we're currently doing.
    It doesn't matter what we say or do the forces behind Hamas will never allow it, they need the Palestinians to channel the anger of their own population. There is no solution, we can't fix this.

  20. #50
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    One article from the very pro-Zionist Ulrike Putz doesn't necessarily give a true and accurate picture of events.
    Ha! You've got nothing - just logical fallacies that don't stand up, as Adrian pointed out, so you bring up talk of 'propaganda conspiracies'.

    What's the matter? Do you not want Hamas to lose support? Surely any reasonable person can see that they are an obstacle for peace.

    As for victims - they are victims of their own stupidity. They've fired - what, like 5000 rockets into Israel over the past four years - into the land of a nation with a vastly superior military and the willingness to use it. How has that made life better for them? Why is it people such as yourself refuse to ask any tough questions about Hamas? Instead you assuming they'll go on doing the moronic things they do, as though they actions are above review or criticism?

    Israel invaded because of what Hamas has done recently. I've heard the talk about how Hamas is the 'resistance' against mean old Israel. But they are some of the stupidest people on this planet to go about resisting the way they do.

    CR
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  21. #51

    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    The BBC has always been biased towards palestine in the way it presents news coverage.
    How ?
    BTW could you explain yor "no" earlier since Israel fits your bill for annexation , perhaps thats just your bias though which is why you claim the BBC is biased .

    Surely any reasonable person can see that they are an obstacle for peace.
    Surely any reasonable person can see that most of the Israeli and Palestinian parties are an obstacle to peace .
    Last edited by Tribesman; 01-26-2009 at 16:53.

  22. #52
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolt View Post
    Probably the best 3 step solution ever:

    1. USA has nukes. USA hasn't tested nukes on a real life, densely populated region in a lot of years. THEY WANT TO DO THAT.
    2. Send the entire American air force over Gaza+Israel, dropping leaflets that they are going to nuke the entire region in one week. The leaflets exhort anyone who wishes to live, to run like rats and leave everything behind. Phone to every home in Israel and Gaza saying that they are going to nuke the region.
    3. Nuke the entire region. No more Israel, no more Gaza, thus no more problems.

    Done.
    1) so does israel- they actually have a lot of nukes.
    2) have you heard of the Sampson Theory (if i have the name correct)? its the theory that if everyone attacked israel and israel was about to be destroyed, all the israeli nukes would be launched to pre-set coordinates around the globe, like teharan, damascus, cairo, and god knows what other cities. but its just a theory, so....
    3) sarcasm is in green, remember?
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  23. #53
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by hooahguy View Post
    3) sarcasm is in green, remember?


    Apparently, I have a sarcastic username...

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  24. #54
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?



    well, maybe your name is sarcastic, but im referring to green in forum posts, but you may want to talk to Tosa about green names for moderators....
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  25. #55
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by hooahguy View Post
    you heard of the Sampson Theory (if i have the name correct)? its the theory that if everyone attacked israel and israel was about to be destroyed, all the israeli nukes would be launched to pre-set coordinates around the globe, like teharan, damascus, cairo, and god knows what other cities. but its just a theory, so....
    I wish that people who oppose the occupation wouldn't play into the Israeli's hands in this regard. They have an, entirely reasonable historically speaking, ideology that someone will try and wipe them out. If somehow we could remove the belief in that - we'd go far.
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  26. #56
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    I wish that people who oppose the occupation wouldn't play into the Israeli's hands in this regard. They have an, entirely reasonable historically speaking, ideology that someone will try and wipe them out. If somehow we could remove the belief in that - we'd go far.
    are you saying that there arent people who want to wipe jews and israel out?
    jews need to be a bit paranoid. it was the lack of being paranoid that led us to so many jews dieing in the Holocaust. if more jews got scared when Hiter (may his name be erased) rose to power, more could have been saved.
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  27. #57
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    I wish that people who oppose the occupation wouldn't play into the Israeli's hands in this regard. They have an, entirely reasonable historically speaking, ideology that someone will try and wipe them out. If somehow we could remove the belief in that - we'd go far.
    We would be very very far off because that's the reality.

  28. #58
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    How ?

    BTW could you explain yor "no" earlier since Israel fits your bill for annexation , perhaps thats just your bias though which is why you claim the BBC is biased .
    That is my perception having watched BBC reporting on israel/palestine for many years, a typical example of which is described here:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_...k_what_happens

    you asked if my comment might equally apply to israel, and i responded;no, indicating that i was talking specifically about palestine.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-26-2009 at 17:29.
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  29. #59
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Surely any reasonable person can see that most of the Israeli and Palestinian parties are an obstacle to peace .
    Aye.

    And they have constituencies, vested interests and bureaucratic power to help them stay in the saddle. And if those aren't enough, the 'enemy' can always be counted on to do something profoundly stupid to stoke up the fire and underpin the most radical and useless factions on both sides.

    There is even a computer game about these aspects of the conflict: Peacemaker. Among other things, the game demonstrates that positive developments and deals in the Middle East are often blocked by internal divisions of the parties concerned, whereby the radical wings destroy whatever sensible initiative the moderate wings come up with.
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  30. #60
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    ............demonstrates that positive developments and deals in the Middle East are often blocked by internal divisions of the parties concerned, whereby the radical wings destroy whatever sensible initiative the moderate wings come up with.
    OT - one of the reasons i do not like coalition politics, and voting methods that encourage coalition governments unlike first-past-the-post.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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