Musket Volleys

[KozaK13]

kk, imagining the cast of black adder the second talking like "rednecks"/ hill billies is difficult...

[Fisherking]

kk, imagining the cast of black adder the second talking like "rednecks"/ hill billies is difficult...

I know what you mean!

[Incongruous]

To make it a story; some time ( I think in the 1820s but it may have been later) the English upper class began to speak in what they thought was a more elegant fashion. They modified the vowel sounds and lengthened them and began to clip some words. This in turn trickled down into the lower levels of society. (the first time in history that it went form the top down) The shift in pronunciation resulted in what we today think of as the British Accent.

Americans and to a lesser extent Canadians did not go through this shift, retaining the older form of the language. Spelling was also not firmly fixed resulting in different ways of spelling the same words.
So as much as the British love to make fun of their cousins across the sea, they speak a much more recent variety of the language.

If you want further information one book is , I believe, “The Story of English”. There are many others, and like this one written primarily by British Authors.

I hope I have answered the question.

I am afraid that sounds a bit off to me, you see, wherever you go throughout the old Empire, people of British descent sound different. Now, you cannot tell me that the English aristocracy decided to change the way it spoke everytime there was a large influx of Brits to the colonies?

Now, there was study, a very good one, done recently about the European NZ accent, it has now been proved that it is slowly changing and moving away from what it originally was. This would indicate that in fact, all those departed from their ancestral homeland, have also gone through the same process.

If you here a recording of a kiwi from the end of the 19th cen. they sound like either Scots, English or Irish. They clearly no longer do, thus I would, by simple application of logic, have to refuse to accept such a hypothesis, to boot that book is now over twenty years old and its research is probably a bit long in the tooth.

There are also, so many ancient regional accents in Britain that it is impossible to state that the English accent has lossed its historical roots through an aristocratice revolution of pronounciation, it simply cannot be true that the farmers I met in Cornwall are the end effect of such a thing. I can hardly understand them, same goes for the boys up north. These accents and dialects are ancient and reach well beyond the founding of the U.S.A.

[Martok]

We seem to have drifted from the original subject.


I'm still thinking/hoping that the uneven gunfire is due to the units being low-level and/or inexperienced, and that with time they'll improve to the point that simultaneous gunfire becomes the norm for them.

[Polemists]

Well I think if I recall they mentioned that there was a fire at will button and a "FIRE" button, so the theory going that you can wait and hold fire, and then hit Fire and they all fire in unison, but if you say fire at will then they all just start shooting.

In reality, I think this is how the battlefield would work, as not everyone would be firing in unison normally do to bullet fire, melee combat, etc.

Though perhaps there is a tech tree upgrade where you can learn it, we do know Drilling of Infantry is one avenue of the tech tree after all.

[Fisherking]

We seem to have drifted from the original subject.


I'm still thinking/hoping that the uneven gunfire is due to the units being low-level and/or inexperienced, and that with time they'll improve to the point that simultaneous gunfire becomes the norm for them.

I took it here...https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...79#post2127779


On topic:

That is what I thought when I first looked at the battle links but then I saw that the Americans had three chevrons on their infantry units.

The caption says it is believed to be an early rending of play. It could be that like others have said, it is fire at will, which makes sense because you see that the player is just whipping the units around and not taking time to control firing.

Perhaps if you want strict volley fire you have to control it. I hope platoon fire is a little easier…

[Sir Beane]

I took it here...https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...79#post2127779


On topic:

That is what I thought when I first looked at the battle links but then I saw that the Americans had three chevrons on their infantry units.

The caption says it is believed to be an early rending of play. It could be that like others have said, it is fire at will, which makes sense because you see that the player is just whipping the units around and not taking time to control firing.

Perhaps if you want strict volley fire you have to control it. I hope platoon fire is a little easier…

I think that 'fire at will' is most likely to be what is producing the effect. There are plenty of other videos and screenshots which seem to show volley fire working exactly as it should.

You probably have to use the 'fire' button if you want a unit to fire as a volley rather than as and when each man feels like it.

[Durango]

I'm still thinking/hoping that the uneven gunfire is due to the units being low-level and/or inexperienced, and that with time they'll improve to the point that simultaneous gunfire becomes the norm for them.

Sounds exactly what I want as well.

Although for some odd reason, I prefer the look and sound of ragged gunfire rather than muskets going off at precisely the same time. Maybe it has something to do with the battlefield being an orchestra or an opera, with different weapons being instruments... No, I'm not a nutcase

Also, guns going off prematurely would be interesting.

Like in The Last Samurai, when the....well "Ashigaru Teppo" or whatever they would be stand in the forests facing the Samurai. One of them start to piss his pants and accidentally fires, with the result that everyone starts to panic and fire too soon. They got annihilated, and so should we in ETW if that happens.

I think that 'fire at will' is most likely to be what is producing the effect. There are plenty of other videos and screenshots which seem to show volley fire working exactly as it should.

You probably have to use the 'fire' button if you want a unit to fire as a volley rather than as and when each man feels like it.

I want to hear officers shout loudly whenever the commands are given:

"Make ready! Preeeeesent! Fire!"

And when the muskets go off, there should be a sound of flint striking the cap before the main ignition. This is extremely important!

[Nelson]

It could be exceedingly difficult for officers to prevent the men from firing once they had a mind to shoot. Unless a charge was conducted without flints it was all too tempting to fire at the enemy as soon as you could. When defending the temptation was to fire early and often because the men would become frightened or impatient. Good discipline was not unknown of course but more rare than many would believe.

One theory in the 18th century advocated free for all firing because it would lead to more shots. Waiting for others slowed the faster men. Regardless of the technique espoused by the generals, the men were still very hard to control.

[Durango]

It could be exceedingly difficult for officers to prevent the men from firing once they had a mind to shoot. Unless a charge was conducted without flints it was all too tempting to fire at the enemy as soon as you could. When defending the temptation was to fire early and often because the men would become frightened or impatient. Good discipline was not unknown of course but more rare than many would believe.

Ah, I see good Sir... but may I politely remind Sir that whilst thou was referring to mere unwashed scum and rabble, my humble self had the King's Royal Redcoats in mind.... It is as they say back home at my cottage in Essex, only....*hrmm*... less gentlemanly brawlers who stand shaking in the face of four aimed shots a minute.

Huzzah!

[KozaK13]

Discipline is something fairly overlooked i think. It is what made the roman army the way it was. It is what helped alexander conquer persis. It is what aided prussia to acendance. It is what helped Napolean conquer europe (de facto). With out discipline noe of this would have happened...

I hope that is is somehow implimented...like there comes a point when you can no longer control your men's rate of fire.

[Polemists]

They have mentioned that drilling is a tech, so I think discipline is part of the technology tree.

So like I said, if you want to focus on infantry, your units may fire in unison. Keep in mind even if they don't, you can select 4, 8, or however many units and just click fire button, so you don't have to click on each unit indivdually and give the command. Also you can hit P for pause and then click it.

So yes, you can focus on discipline rather then infrastructure or education, just don't be surprised when your men are very organized but don't know which way to point the musket :)

[USS Providence 1972]

They have mentioned that drilling is a tech, so I think discipline is part of the technology tree.

So like I said, if you want to focus on infantry, your units may fire in unison. Keep in mind even if they don't, you can select 4, 8, or however many units and just click fire button, so you don't have to click on each unit indivdually and give the command. Also you can hit P for pause and then click it.

So yes, you can focus on discipline rather then infrastructure or education, just don't be surprised when your men are very organized but don't know which way to point the musket :)

That's interesting. I'm guessing you develop drilling as a discipline and then your troops are able to fire by rank. I would also guess that the ability to form squares has to be drilled. Experience probably then makes them more accurate and speeds up the reload time, as well as better at hand to hand.

I wonder if there will also be drills for the iron men on the wooden ships.

[Fisherking]

That's interesting. I'm guessing you develop drilling as a discipline and then your troops are able to fire by rank. I would also guess that the ability to form squares has to be drilled. Experience probably then makes them more accurate and speeds up the reload time, as well as better at hand to hand.

I wonder if there will also be drills for the iron men on the wooden ships.

One of the things I saw in a review was that the starting cartridge boxes held twenty rounds and it was hinted that that could go up.

It seems a strange tech to me.

Not like the commander says, alright boys, this could be a long day. I want each man carrying 60 rounds into battle.

I could understand if it was loading buck and ball in the cartridges or other special shot, but the number of rounds?

Ship technologies I hope will prove to be more substantial. Copper bottoms comes to mind…a long held British Military Secret.

[Polemists]

Okay guys, again this from another forum, you should thank me for hoping forums so much :).

So straight from a CA dev's mouth again

here's the link

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...46#post4407246

Entitled: Entire units of infantry firing at once

We had a bug in some of the videos where all men fired. We have men firing in different ways with a different depth of ranks depending on the firing drill.

So there you go, further confirmation, it's all about the drill :)

and another firing comment regarding multiple ranks firing.

Please don't misquote me. It's not a feature that ALL ranks can fire. What is true is that improved firing drills let MORE ranks fire than just the first rank.

[Sir Beane]

Okay guys, again this from another forum, you should thank me for hoping forums so much :).

So straight from a CA dev's mouth again

here's the link

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...46#post4407246

Entitled: Entire units of infantry firing at once




So there you go, further confirmation, it's all about the drill :)

and another firing comment regarding multiple ranks firing.

You're getting good at fact-finding Polemists . Different drills allowing more ranks to fire is an excellent way of representing better discipline in certain units.

[geala]

Interesting videos. I'm not really able to interpret however. The fight seems to take place in the War of Independence. At that late time at least the British troops should have the most modern fire mode.

This means imho a combination of platoon fire and volley fire. At least this would be true for the Prussian army. I'm not as sure for the British, but I think they used a similar system. With platoon fire it is of course normal that only parts of the line are firing at the same time. But the fire is steady and without pause, contrary to the outdated rank firing.

By no means rank firing was a modern form of firefight in the 18th century. It was the old form, used already in the 1600s. Some armies were bound to this antique form of fire longer than others, f.e. the French. But the Prussians and British f.e. developed platoon fire relatively early. The Prussian army in the middle of the 18th c. used volley fire (meaning that the entire battalion fires at once) in some circumstances too, f.e. from short distance prior to a bajonet charge. Platoon firing from greater distances was however the norm.

I hope CA got it right and platoon firing is in the game.

[Sir Beane]

Interesting videos. I'm not really able to interpret however. The fight seems to take place in the War of Independence. At that late time at least the British troops should have the most modern fire mode.

This means imho a combination of platoon fire and volley fire. At least this would be true for the Prussian army. I'm not as sure for the British, but I think they used a similar system. With platoon fire it is of course normal that only parts of the line are firing at the same time. But the fire is steady and without pause, contrary to the outdated rank firing.

By no means rank firing was a modern form of firefight in the 18th century. It was the old form, used already in the 1600s. Some armies were bound to this antique form of fire longer than others, f.e. the French. But the Prussians and British f.e. developed platoon fire relatively early. The Prussian army in the middle of the 18th c. used volley fire (meaning that the entire battalion fires at once) in some circumstances too, f.e. from short distance prior to a bajonet charge. Platoon firing from greater distances was however the norm.

I hope CA got it right and platoon firing is in the game.

Platoon firing is definitely in the game: (quote taken from CA's site)

Platoon Firing

This firing plan for musketry ensures an infantry unit keeps up a continual barrage of shots against an enemy.

Nearly all line infantry carry smoothbore, muzzle-loading muskets. These take considerable time to reload after firing: anything up to a minute for poorly trained or nervous troops. During that time, the enemy can close or return fire unmolested. In the time it takes to reload, a unit can be cut down, its half-loaded weapons useless in the face of an aggressive foe. It is sensible to make sure that not everyone in an infantry unit is reloading at the same moment; this, in turn, means that not everyone should be firing at the same time.

Platoon fire is a way of dividing a unit into smaller groups that each fire, reload and fire again in turn. The result is a “rippling fire” down a line formation and, as the last platoon fires its muskets, the first is ready to fire again. A unit can always give some fire to the enemy at all times, even if this is less than a complete volley. When more than one unit is involved all the troops in every first platoon fire, followed by all the second platoons, and so on, creating several rippling barrages down the battle line.

The word “platoon” in this context does not have the modern meaning of being a sub-unit of a military company. Platoon assignment to what was a “fire group” was made on an ad hoc or informal basis, and could mean a whole regiment being assigned to a “platoon”.

[geala]

Thank you. Shame on me, I should read the sticky thread more often and accurately. I'm curious wether CA created platoon fire after the existing systems. The descprition sounds like one end of the line starts and the other end ends the platoon fire what would normally not be the case imho.