Legion vs. Phalanx online tournament

[IrishHitman]

If we can't show which side is definitely better, we can at least make a study of it.

A tournament setting will just ruin the entire point.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

If we can't show which side is definitely better, we can at least make a study of it.

A tournament setting will just ruin the entire point.

I´m sorry man but i don´t think it´s possible to do it because we lack the tools for such a study. If TW engine was as accurate as possible then i would agree with you about the possibility of doing such study.

[IrishHitman]

I´m sorry man but i don´t think it´s possible to do it because we lack the tools for such a study. If TW engine was as accurate as possible then i would agree with you about the possibility of doing such study.

It's not a historical study, it's a RTW study.
Which is better on the EB mod, in other words.

[Βελισάριος]

Again, Irish... I'm open to suggestions. What do you propose we do instead?

And the point wasn't really to see which of the factions is better. That's an issue no amount of study will satisfy for anyone. It's more a matter of whether Legionary armies are more efficient than Phalanxes.
And again, I support the idea that having a number of battles between Hellenic generals of the various factions again Roman generals will settle this to some extent. It's not so much a tournament in the classic sense, since we (probably) won't have only one winner, but the culture that remains "standing" at the end is declared victorious.

[IrishHitman]

Again, Irish... I'm open to suggestions. What do you propose we do instead?

And the point wasn't really to see which of the factions is better. That's an issue no amount of study will satisfy for anyone. It's more a matter of whether Legionary armies are more efficient than Phalanxes.
And again, I support the idea that having a number of battles between Hellenic generals of the various factions again Roman generals will settle this to some extent. It's not so much a tournament in the classic sense, since we (probably) won't have only one winner, but the culture that remains "standing" at the end is declared victorious.

That's why I made my suggestion to counteract the knockout format.
Plenty of 1v1 and 2v2 games, with stats, wins/losses and replays (if possible) posted for the jury to consider. The overall winner and individual team/player award are considered.

All we need to establish now is how many games do we want to play.

[HunGeneral]

I think that "Two Books" Idea sounds nice. IF it could Work I don't know. We might just make things more complicated but if the mutliplaying participators would be interrested and there enough of them to take part in that aswell we should try it.

Bracket system... well I don't know. It should be tested in practice first.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

It's not a historical study, it's a RTW study.
Which is better on the EB mod, in other words.

At this terms i agree with you.

[Maion Maroneios]

OK, here are some suggestions I have cooked up for the army composition and limitation of the armies of the Hellenes.

Epeiros - 1 type of army (Reformed Pyrrhic)

Infantry: A mixture of phalanx with flexible infantry and phalanx as a solid line. This means basically the main line should be phalanx-infantry-phalanx-infantry etc. Illyrians can and should be used by any extent (Illyrioi Thorakitai/Thureophoroi, Illyrioi Parktioi) as flankers, as well as traditional Thureophoroi/Thorakitai, Peltastai and Hoplitai (Haploi and normal). As for mercenaries, use of Pezoi Brettioi and Samnitai is acceptable, as historically they helped Pyrrhos in his campaigns.

Cavalry: Heavy cavalry about 4 units max. Campanians excluded. 1 unit of Elephantes Indikoi maximum.

Ranged: 4 units of missile troops (including Kretikoi/Rhodioi Sphendonetai and excluding Akontistai) maximum.

Makedonia - 2 types of armies (Late Alexandrian, Reformed)

Late Alexandrian Army

Infantry: A solid line of phalanx troops (about 8) of mixed quality (Deuteroi, Pezhetairoi, Misthophoroi Pezhetairoi, Argyraspides). Thureophoroi, Agrianikoi Pelekophoroi, Peltastai (including Thraikioi), Hoplitai (Haploi and normal) for flankers.

Cavalry: 4 units max. More accurate, it should be even less, about 2-3. This includes the Strategos.

Ranged: 4 units of missile troops (including Kretikoi/Rhodioi Sphendonetai and excluding Akontistai) maximum.

Reformed Army

Same as previous, but instead of Pezhetairoi you have the Hysteroi guys. And quite many of them as well (about 4 out of 8). Also, use more mercenaries than normally, with Thraikioi and Illyrioi being the norm.

Koinon Hellenon - 2 types of armies (Iphikratean, Reformed 'Successor')

Iphikratean

Infantry: Iphikratides or hoplites as a 4-6 unit solid main line, as well as 2 elite hoplites (including Strategos). Normal hoplites can be used as flankers as well as Thorakitai/Thureophoroi/Peltastai (and Thraikioi).

Cavalry: About 2-3 units (Hippeis, Hippakontistai). No Thessalikoi.

Ranged: 4 Toxotai/Sphendonetai (including Kretikoi/Rhodioi Sphendonetai and excluding Akontistai).

Reformed 'Successor' Army

Koinon Phalangitai and Misthophoroi Pezhetairoi (2 maximum) as a main line, as well as the same flankers as the Iphikratean one. Hoplites and Iphs can be included. 2 elites as well (Strategos included). Xystophoroi can be used as well, but 1 unit maximum. 2-3 units of cavalry all in all.

I'll come back for the Diadochoi, but first I'll list here the possible matchups:

Epeiros vs Romani --> Reformed Pyrrhic - Camillan
Makedonia vs Romani --> Late Alexandrian - Polybian or Reformed - Polybian
Koinon Hellenon vs Romani --> Traditional vs Polybian or Reformed Iphikratean

Maion

[Maion Maroneios]

Just a little extra thing I remembered. We should apply for a special subforum to be created for us and hold this tournament on a basis we should decide. This can lots of fun, making videos and the like in the future.

Maion

[rootje]

My RTW-gold just came in the post so I'm ready to rock, should I just do a second install with key when the tourney comes up or do I need to reinstall my basic playing install? hope not as I use alexander to play :P. Any help on this would be appriacted also I'm really looking forward to this, havn't played TW games in mutiplayer for years because in my experience most people just tried to ''leetkid;'and there wasn't much tactcs in it, just spamming elite units. With this community I have faith in a wonderfull tourney though :D!

[paullus]

Just a thought, but if you're using 14 un-upgraded units, you probably don't need more than about 35k. otherwise you get into rather silly unit additions. it should be that, as a successor army for example, if you decide you want elephants and hypaspistai, you have to suffer in the composition of your phalanx to be able to field those units.

As a lead historian for EB, might I offer a few thoughts on some of the limits you might impose on elites and non-phalanx/legion troops? I'd require that 9 units on each roster be phalanx/legion troops, unless you find that too restrictive or burdensome. That does mean that the successor armies will be, numerically, a good bit larger than their Roman counterparts. is that ok?

Obviously you want to have some choice in how a roster looks, but a historical 14-unit roman army migth appear as follows:

1x equites
2x velites/leves
3x hastati
3x principes
3x triarii
with two "extra" units, either both extraordinarii units (but not two of either), or two missile units, or another cav unit, etc.
you might also allow replacing one of each from the 3 traditional units with a comparable "allied" unit.

for the Successors, with 14 units:

1x hetairoi/gen
2x agema/silvershield (and no more than 2)
4x pezhetairoi/klerouchoi
3x deuteroi/pantodapoi/machimoi
to which you can add no more than 2 additional cavalry, none of which may be hetairoi, and no more than 2 missile units, and no more than 1 unit of hypaspistai equivalents.

i hope that can be helpful, this seems like a great idea.

[IrishHitman]

Makedonia - 2 types of armies (Late Alexandrian, Reformed)

Late Alexandrian Army

Infantry: A solid line of phalanx troops (about 8) of mixed quality (Deuteroi, Pezhetairoi, Misthophoroi Pezhetairoi, Argyraspides). Thureophoroi, Agrianikoi Pelekophoroi, Peltastai (including Thraikioi), Hoplitai (Haploi and normal) for flankers.

Cavalry: 4 units max. More accurate, it should be even less, about 2-3. This includes the Strategos.

Ranged: 4 units of missile troops (including Kretikoi/Rhodioi Sphendonetai and excluding Akontistai) maximum.

Reformed Army

Same as previous, but instead of Pezhetairoi you have the Hysteroi guys. And quite many of them as well (about 4 out of 8). Also, use more mercenaries than normally, with Thraikioi and Illyrioi being the norm.
[/CENTER]

I agree with this for the most part, although I'd impose stricter controls on the late Alexandrian army, like this:

Late Alexandrian:
2 Argyraspides, 2 Pezhetairoi, 3 levy.
1 Hypaspist unit, 1 Thracian peltasts and 1 Agrianian unit min.
I may include 1 Illyrian peltast unit as well, if they exist in EB.
I guess a regular peltast unit could fill the unit gap on that one.

Min 1 - Max 2 Companions, Min 1 - Max 2 Thessalians.

Min 1 Cretan archers.

The last four slots should be filled with League of Corinth (Southern Greek) troops, of various stripe.
Hoplites mostly, though I'd also place some medium cavalry in there for accuracy as I'll explain*.

If my reading of JR Hamilton's introduction to Arrian's Campaigns of Alexander is correct, then that should present the most realistic Alexandrian army.

Though the cavalry is still disproportionately large if the max is used... By a factor of two.
Hamilton states that when Alexander crossed the Hellespont, he had 30-43 thousand infantry (including ranged) and 4-5 thousand cavalry. The proportion would have stayed the same until Alexander dismissed his Thessalians in Media, and Persian melee/horse archer battalions were formed.

The proportion between Companian and Thessalian cavalry is stated as exactly equal at 1,800 each, with the League cavalry making up the rest*.

[alexanderthegreater]

I agree with this for the most part, although I'd impose stricter controls on the late Alexandrian army, like this:

Late Alexandrian:
2 Argyraspides, 2 Pezhetairoi, 3 levy.
1 Hypaspist unit, 1 Thracian peltasts and 1 Agrianian unit min.
I may include 1 Illyrian peltast unit as well, if they exist in EB.
I guess a regular peltast unit could fill the unit gap on that one.

Min 1 - Max 2 Companions, Min 1 - Max 2 Thessalians.

Min 1 Cretan archers.

The last four slots should be filled with League of Corinth (Southern Greek) troops, of various stripe.
Hoplites mostly, though I'd also place some medium cavalry in there for accuracy as I'll explain*.

If my reading of JR Hamilton's introduction to Arrian's Campaigns of Alexander is correct, then that should present the most realistic Alexandrian army.

Though the cavalry is still disproportionately large if the max is used... By a factor of two.
Hamilton states that when Alexander crossed the Hellespont, he had 30-43 thousand infantry (including ranged) and 4-5 thousand cavalry. The proportion would have stayed the same until Alexander dismissed his Thessalians in Media, and Persian melee/horse archer battalions were formed.

The proportion between Companian and Thessalian cavalry is stated as exactly equal at 1,800 each, with the League cavalry making up the rest*.

I think this is wayyyy to strict, we have to allow some creativity to the generals and we don't want every matchup to be the same. I would say:

Min 6 phalanx/legionaires
Max 4 cavalry
Max 4 missile
Max 1 ele/art
No upgrades in armor or exp

with about 30 000 mnai max - thats more than enough to have about 16 units - which seems like the right army size