superior tactics video

[CountArach]

I feel that my worst fears may have just been confirmed by that awful peformance on the AI's part, that battle was pathetically easy and quick. He was able to smash the enemy army with his cavalry alone it seemed, and when he did use infantry it was enough to have them in, what was it? eight ranks deep? Troops also seem to have returned to using rockets to propell themselves across the battlefield and we once again have candy colours! Yay!!!
Improved AI? Where?

If this is all CA have to offer, and I hope they impress me with their next video, then Empire will become the biggest gaming dissapointment ever...

Yeah I'm seriously considering not buying it now - that was shocking.

Also I found the bunched-up combat with 10 or so units on each side just on top of a hill a huge turn-off. Seriously, there is no way that any 18th Century battle would end up with that type of situation.

[Belgolas]

Yeah I'm seriously considering not buying it now - that was shocking.

Also I found the bunched-up combat with 10 or so units on each side just on top of a hill a huge turn-off. Seriously, there is no way that any 18th Century battle would end up with that type of situation.

Um check again. The enemy AI had units in 3 ranks deep. Also they have a full battalion square and used it pretty well IMO. If this is what the AI will be like in the final version then it will definitely be the best TW AI I have ever seen. Watch the 720p version. You can actually see what is going on.

This is gonna be the best TW.

[Durango]

Um check again. The enemy AI had units in 3 ranks deep. Also they have a full battalion square and used it pretty well IMO. If this is what the AI will be like in the final version then it will definitely be the best TW AI I have ever seen. Watch the 720p version. You can actually see what is going on.

Hmm, maybe I should download the HD version and have a look. When I saw the standard one there was no way to tell if the AI actually formed anything at all. But as long as the infantry uses proper line tactics with no huge clumps of units 6 ranks deep, I'll be happy.

Anyone identify exactly what kind of units were involved in the battle?

This is gonna be the best TW.

O RLY?

[hoom]

You can definitely see the AI form its army into a big square.
Strangely with gaps you could just about squeeze a cav unit through though...

There is a special effect 'spark' sort of thing when steel meets steel. I thought it might have been just for the one shot but then I saw it again & again.
(Could this be the mystical 'glints' effect that never did anything in the RTW engine?)

I don't think our AI programmer guy is that great a TW player (or playing dumb for effect?)
He does some rather odd things with his units

Draw distance is looking way sweet, though I have to suspect that there is a battlemap edge hidden somewhere within the mini-map border.

After the initial cavalry charge, when his troops had formed on the hill, the AI is still in/has reformed a partial square :)

While it seems like it was an easy win in low quality, he started with a full 20 unit stack:
519 Horse
480 Infantry
36 Gun crew
Total 1035

But finished (last frame where you can see unit numbers) with only 11 units in combat:
71 Horse
269 Infantry
12 Gun crew
Total 352

Lost his general & 2/3rds of his force.

Edit: beaten to the numbers...

[Belgolas]

While it seems like it was an easy win in low quality, he started with a full 20 unit stack:
519 Horse
480 Infantry
36 Gun crew
Total 1035

But finished (last frame where you can see unit numbers) with only 11 units in combat:
71 Horse
269 Infantry
12 Gun crew
Total 352

Lost his general & 2/3rds of his force.

Edit: beaten to the numbers...

Only if you don't count the men retreating.



One thing I don't like is at the very end it has a thing that says "plays best on Alienware". Come one they had to accept money from them . Some of the most expensive pieces of garbage ever. There so called water cooling sucks and are way over expensive. Just build your own and save a few thousand bucks. end rant.

Although I like that it says runs great on Core i7 So hopefully they will optimize it for 8 threads.

[pyradyn]

He does do odd things with his units. Which in all intense purposes would work, just don't expect an army after. Someone who was playing to preserve his army would have a deal of trouble the AI did nothing stupid from what I saw and I am guessing he was playing on Medium

[Battlefield Fire]

Nice graphics, though I wonder what battalion square he's talking about that they got from Bonaparte as the squares used by the AI aren't even squares.

[Incongruous]

Nice graphics, though I wonder what battalion square he's talking about that they got from Bonaparte as the squares used by the AI aren't even squares.

Indeed, you hit upon a good point and a great weakness of that DEMOnstration which was apparently meant to show us the ability of the AI to use advanced tactics such as a battalion square. The CA man playing cut his own head off rather fantastically by employing increadibly poor tactics and nullifying any chance of a true demonstration of the AI's abilities, very poor marketing I must say.

The CA rep began an almost immdiate assault upon the AI with his cavalry in an almost suicidal way, charging head on into infantry formations, losing most of his army in the process and in doing so ruined any chance of us seeing the AI's new abilities in action. We did not get a chance to see anything and were instead allowed to see the serious flkaws in the game.

[Battlefield Fire]

Bopa: True. He was trying to duplicate the Mameluke charges against Bonaparte's squares in the Battle of the Pyramids. The only difference is the Mameluke's lost because Napoleon's squares were real squares while those of the AI weren't. ( heh )

[Belgolas]

He started out with 1035 men and ended with 377 men left. He lost 4 units completely and 4 units routed. He almost lost all his cavalry. He started out with 519 including general for cavalry and only had 78 left at the end.

He took heavy losses losing 64% of his army. He had 2 cannon units and each cannon unit only had 18 men! That is much better then the last total wars where you had 80 guys for one artilery unit.

I forgot to mention it was 18 units and 3 cannons. So that is a large improvement.

[Monk]

He started out with 1035 men and ended with 377 men left. He lost 4 units completely and 4 units routed. He almost lost all his cavalry. He started out with 519 including general for cavalry and only had 78 left at the end.

He took heavy losses losing 64% of his army. He had 2 cannon units and each cannon unit only had 18 men! That is much better then the last total wars where you had 80 guys for one artilery unit.

I forgot to mention it was 18 units and 3 cannons. So that is a large improvement.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who liked what they saw!

[Incongruous]

Um check again. The enemy AI had units in 3 ranks deep. Also they have a full battalion square and used it pretty well IMO. If this is what the AI will be like in the final version then it will definitely be the best TW AI I have ever seen. Watch the 720p version. You can actually see what is going on.

This is gonna be the best TW.

I saw a poorly executed battlefield manouvre, I was not impressed, if the AI finds it that hard to move around, it will prove no challenge. I mean I saw units of cavalry mulling around when they could have affected the outcome of the first phase of battle. This was highlighted even more by the insane movement speeds of all units, I knew that we would have to slow them for ourselves, but that was dire indeed.

The demonstrator has proved beyond a doubt that cavalry can dominate infantry, no matter the situation, it does not matter that they take heavy losses, they should not be able to do it full stop. Remeber RTW cav spamming? Players would take massive casualties but it did not matter because their all cav army could win, and that is what matters.

CA was reffering to the demonstrator's own formation, which was to deploy his infantry in very deep formations while on defence, which allowed him to beat back a counter attack

[Belgolas]

I saw a poorly executed battlefield manouvre, I was not impressed, if the AI finds it that hard to move around, it will prove no challenge. I mean I saw units of cavalry mulling around when they could have affected the outcome of the first phase of battle. This was highlighted even more by the insane movement speeds of all units, I knew that we would have to slow them for ourselves, but that was dire indeed.

The demonstrator has proved beyond a doubt that cavalry can dominate infantry, no matter the situation, it does not matter that they take heavy losses, they should not be able to do it full stop. Remeber RTW cav spamming? Players would take massive casualties but it did not matter because their all cav army could win, and that is what matters.

CA was reffering to the demonstrator's own formation, which was to deploy his infantry in very deep formations while on defence, which allowed him to beat back a counter attack

Well men can run pretty fast you know. I thought they were a little bit fast but not nearly as fast as RTW's infantry guys that could almost out run a horse. over half his army was cavalry and the majority of the enemy was infantry. The cavalry charged into men that were 3 ranks deep. Obviously they would win that.

Anyways in RTW a full army of praetorian cavalry would own a full army of whatever and maybe loose 100 men. This time he nearly lost all of his men. Although I do agree this guy didn't do too well but you have to remember that most people play at about his level. So the AI is still not as good as a human. Name one game where the AI is as good as a human without using cheats.

[CountArach]

So the AI is still not as good as a human. Name one game where the AI is as good as a human without using cheats.

You would be surprised what some games can achieve. For example Take Command: 2nd Manassas had a very tough AI that was capable of putting in place a good battle plan. You would be fighting one part of the enemy only to have the other wing loop around behind you and strike you in the rear. I had some nasty battles on that game engine.

[gollum]

This is the *improved tactics*?

The AI was rushed at the begining with the cavalry and responded by setting his infantry out and the cavalry in - that wasnt all that bad initself - altough it is debatable if he would be better off rearranging his musket infantry on a line formation (ready eventually to let deadly volleys out) while the Dutch cavalry bought them time instead of letting his musket infantry being charged by the British cavalry and then let his own cavalry in.

This is actually a typical mistake newbies do in mp - they let their gunners be *crunched* between the enemy line that charges them and their own melee line that goes to engage the enemy s. In this way they *lose* their gunners for nothing.

One of the signs to distinguish noobs and decent players in mp is the ability to readily protect your gun troops that become very important at the end phase of the battle because their powerful shots can rout depleted units. Protecting them can take place with fast cavalry (if the enemy attacks with fast cavalry) and with the gunners themselves firing in support OR if the enemy advances his melee line by advancing your own and engage in front of the gunners all the while having your gnners fire into the advancing enemy mass to tear apart their morale before engagement.

In the battle shown we had the first case - a massive cavalry raid - that succeded because the AI presented his msuket infantry instead of protecting it and having it fire while he engaged with his cavalry.

But the worst of it all comes after the *square* demonstration - the AI, like in previous games, ignores the fact that the enemy has the high ground and charges up hill let alone that he does that while being outnumbered. This is very familiar and there is nothing improved about it - its good old incompetent RTW/M2TW AI marching to his doom.

It seems CA programmers find the obvious enthrilling with the enthusiasm of a myops detective nowdays - so much for their *expertise*.

gah!

!it burnsus!

[lars573]

Your entire analysis is very flawed. One, in the 18th centry 90% of the time your shooting and melee infantry are the same unit. And it takes time to switch. Two, his army was heavy on the cavalry so he could take out the AI fast. He zipped in his light cavalry to pounce on the enemy infantry before they could fix bayonettes and form a square. Which is what they are for, and you'll note he took some heavy losses in the light horse units. Three, firing through your own lines with muskets is, simply put, not possible.

He saw that the AI was going to assume a defesive posture, as he had the high ground. He used his light cavalry to delay that until his infantry were in range. Then it was all over.

[CountArach]

Um check again. The enemy AI had units in 3 ranks deep. Also they have a full battalion square and used it pretty well IMO.

You misunderstand me completely. I don't have a problem with ranking 3 deep - that's fine. What I care about is there being 10 units stacked on top of each other on 1 hill that are in a bunched-up fight. That is completely ahistorical and not at all 18th Century.

If this is what the AI will be like in the final version then it will definitely be the best TW AI I have ever seen.
[...]
This is gonna be the best TW.

That's what depresses me.

CA was reffering to the demonstrator's own formation, which was to deploy his infantry in very deep formations while on defence, which allowed him to beat back a counter attack

No, actually, but I hated that as well.

The only reason that the Programmer took such high casualties was because he was using his army completely poorly. Charging cavalry headlong into teh enemy apparently does win battles - but you will pay in blood.