Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[desert]

OK, I ran a few tests.

1 match with Eastern Axemen vs AI Spartans: 174 killed - 36 killed

2 matches with Spartans vs AI; default formation used: 20 - 179
37 - 162

2 matches with Spartans vs AI; 8-shields-deep: 33 - 153
13 - 161

1 match with Spartans vs AI; maximum line length: 19 v 125

The AI of course did retarded things like try to throw missiles while I mauled their lines, and run away after having done so only to charge me and repeat the whole process every 30 seconds.

[A Very Super Market]

Nobody would send those guys solo against Spartans. There is no point. You send them into the flank. Thus, your information is INVALID!!!! :P

[desert]

Eh, no, because I was trying to find out how Spartans would fare against Eastern axemen in a head-on collision. So it is valid. In reality, the Spartans would lose a couple men, while the axemen would lose 50 men, at which point they would rout.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Did these guys get re-skinned in 1.2?? In 1.1 they have a completely different skin. And I am still playing 1.1.

[A Very Super Market]

What do they look like in 1.1? Frankly, I hate their current skin. Maybe its just my slight OCD talking, but it just looks so dirty. One of the reasons why I dislike using Illyrians.

[Mediolanicus]

You dislike using Illyrians because you don't like the way Numidians look like

[Zett]

You dislike using Illyrians because you don't like the way Numidians look like

He dislikes the "dirty" look of them, if i got him right.



Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Phalanx300]

I could classify all Hoplite units as Suprisingly bad, they are really underpowered in EB. They were killing machines from the front, as prooven by Thermopylae where even the non Spartans were slaugtering the Persians from the front. In EB Hoplites drop to easilly from the front, guard mode only makes it worse.

Hoplites rely on destroying the enemy from the front, not to rely on cavalry or light infantry to do it from the back. Which is really one of the bad points of EB, Hoplites should be given some sort of formation to better portray their real Phalanx.

Right now they just fight as individual soldiers.

[Mediolanicus]

When fighting Epeiros as the Romani in my campaign I had serious trouble with their Hoplitai.
Epeiros moved to Greece in my campaign and were throwing stacks full of Hoplitai and Thorakitai. I found the Thorakitai much easier to kill than the Hoplitai.

[Phalanx300]

Stat wise the Thorakitai are better. The point is that the Hoplites aren't really good enough portrayed in EB .

[Mediolanicus]

Try adding the short_pike attribute or reducing the space between the individual men in the unit in the EDU.

That tends to help.

[Phalanx300]

I know, yet I'm in that Greek Vs Roman tourney so if they don't have the same changes it wont work.

And I also don't really know why the EB team haven't chosen themselves to go for a more realistic formation.

[antisocialmunky]

You're not using them right, I can vouch for them as being awesome. Its just that they are a pain to setup right and can't attack. The the only way they excel is sitting in defense mode and not dying. Anything else and they end up underwhelming.

[Phalanx300]

It's not me not using them right, Hoplites weren't a static wall. It was about charging the enemy with the shield wall and then push their line apart with the first two ranks stabbing down. It was a agressive force and extremely lethal from the front. Which isn't really that good portrayed in EB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHZt...e=channel_page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2XL...eature=channel

[antisocialmunky]

My bad, I misunderstood what you said. In that case yes, they do need to be tweaked. ROP had pretty good hoplites. That game did devolve into a ridiculous pushing match.

[heldelance]

People that complain that hoplites die fast with guard mode, learn to use it right. Hoplites need guard mode on when the enemy charges and you keep it on only while the enemy is on the front face of the hoplites. Once they start surrounding the hoplites (or when hoplites are fighting more than 1 unit) then you run into problems if you leave guard mode on. Guard mode means they'll fight in a line and try to keep the line solid at all costs. This means they don't break formation which works against them once the enemy surrounds them, once the enemy kind of gets to their flanks, disable guard mode, they'll survive much longer since they're not a static line anymore.

Just realized this while fighting the Seleukids around Pontos, Levy Hoplites are amazingly good (for their level and price) if you have a unit like the Gaesatae around, anything with a morale boosting and killing effect. I found that with that unit behind the Levies, they held as long as normal hoplites without morale boosting units.

[Phalanx300]

Anti, short_pike from ROP makes it to extreme, changing density would be better.

Heldelance, guard mode makes you units fight worse, even at a solid front(Hoplites are a attacking force, letting them stand still isn't a Hoplite Phalanx, and that is the only use of Guard Mode). I tested all possible ways for Hoplites and I must say that changing the density is the most accurate solution.

[Zett]

I must say that changing the density is the most accurate solution.

Also, in EB I really get the feeling that Hoplites are underpowered, maybe doing something with them for this tourney would be better. Like the 0.2 density?

But not to 0.2, that is overkill. I onced use diffrent densities for Hoplites too and all 0.2 units were nearly unstobable on the field. For example, an unit of Thorakitai Hoplitai with 0.2 slaughtered an unit of Pedites Extraordinarii 1 vs. 1 with no problems. Even classical Hoplitai with 0.23 where able to beat them 1 vs. 1.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Phalanx300]

Then again, you shouldn't try to beat them from the front, you can more easilly outflank them and on large battles they still tend to rout when their line is outflanked. Yet from the front it's impossible with loose order infantry to beat Hoplites, except with Phalangites or other Hoplites. Which is historical looking at Hoplite warfare.

[desert]

Technically the first 3 ranks stab at the enemy.

And sometimes hoplites did in fact just form a static line instead of charging their enemies.

Apparently, if a phalanx poised its shields on the ground and huddled against them while raising their spears at an angle(sort of like in this picture)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

, then they were immovable ().

[Βελισάριος]

I can personally vouch for the Hoplitai. In guard mode they're nigh indestructable. They even held out better than my Pezhetairoi units, as Anti can tell you.

But I have to agree, when it comes to attacking they fail miserably. I'd go for the 0.2 density which sounds fairly accurate to me. But I fear it may be overpowering them too. They're good, but it's not an army of Achilles we're taling about here.

Also, not surprisingly, but damn good:

My new favourite unit.

And... the unit of my Strategos nightmares:

These buggers'll cut through infantry like a knife through warm butter... but if a cavarly unit so much as shakes a spear at them they start running like armoured bunnies.
Hate 'em to death...

[antisocialmunky]

Does anyone know why they are really crap in horse to horse?

[Zett]

Yet from the front it's impossible with loose order infantry to beat Hoplites, except with Phalangites or other Hoplites.

But heavy assault infantery should be able to do so. So even Thorakitai Hoplitai should take heavy causalties if attacked by Pedites Extraordinarii (IMO and I say that as a Romani-hater). And with 0.2 it doesn't matter if you flanke them or not, they will just hold their position and kill everything. I think 0.3 - 0.25 - 0.23 (levy/semi* - classicals - elites) is ok, but you have to change some stats or the unitcosts/upkeep to rebalance the game. *With "semi" I mean for example Massaliotai Hoplitai.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[heldelance]

The defend mode on hoplites seem to work for both defense and offense from what I've seen when I paid closer attention to it. If you turn guard on and charge, they try to maintain the line and more of the units actually hit the enemy which I would guess would lead to lower casualties on your side and greater on theirs. When defending, guard mode turns them into a solid wall making it hard for the enemy to break your formation. Keep in mind though that when they do break your formation, and the will, guard mode needs to be turned off so that the hoplites are looser. You can tell if they break your formation if the hoplites start changing the facing of their line which usually makes them vulnerable to flank attacks.

[Mooks]

Thracian calvary (The mercenaries) are pretty damn good. Against calvary, against infantry, and for chasing down skirmishers. Its surprising that the description is pretty much spot on.

[Phalanx300]

Hoplites on guard mode on the offensive are very bad, their entire unit get decimated with only a few enemy dead.

I can personally vouch for the Hoplitai. In guard mode they're nigh indestructable. They even held out better than my Pezhetairoi units, as Anti can tell you.

But I have to agree, when it comes to attacking they fail miserably. I'd go for the 0.2 density which sounds fairly accurate to me. But I fear it may be overpowering them too. They're good, but it's not an army of Achilles we're taling about here.

Well yeah, but holding out wasn't their puspose, it was destroying the enemy, it wasn't about pinning as it is with the Phalangites.

I just think that they should definately perform better, right now it could just make people think why the Greeks even bothered to fight as Hoplites..

But heavy assault infantery should be able to do so. So even Thorakitai Hoplitai should take heavy causalties if attacked by Pedites Extraordinarii (IMO and I say that as a Romani-hater). And with 0.2 it doesn't matter if you flanke them or not, they will just hold their position and kill everything. I think 0.3 - 0.25 - 0.23 (levy/semi* - classicals - elites) is ok, but you have to change some stats or the unitcosts/upkeep to rebalance the game. *With "semi" I mean for example Massaliotai Hoplitai.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

I definately don't think that they should be able to be beaten by the front, I can't think of a case where such a thing ever happened. Except at Marathon but there they made a smaller frontline on purpose. If you look at the Thorakitai Hoplitai unit card you'll see that it were those units who broke the Roman right flank in the battle of Corinth.

And about those semi units, I'm wondering why you put them in the levy group? All Hoplites had swords, these semi ones just were known to put great use to them(which is why they have swords), putting them to classical at the least would be better. For Hypaspitai elite would fit more.

[antisocialmunky]

I wonder if missiles would disrupt thier formation more if we did that.

Also, I believe that a lot of the 'mixed' culture hoplites fought a little looser or atleast that's what the descriptions say.

[Phalanx300]

The only one I know of are the Syracusians, which also have longer spears(I gues only they should have the way to long spears that many Hoplites have). As far as I know they were the only ones(in EB).

[Zett]

About the "semi", just another prove, that English is not my first language. I meant 'mixed' culture Hoplites, how antisocialmunky already said. And IMO they should fight in a looser formation. That would be Syrakosioi, Massaliotai, Triarii (even if they are elites), and perhaps the Indogreek Hoplites (even if they are elites too). About the Hypaspistai, it's true that their unitdescription says, that they fought as Hoplitai, but in game, you use them more as a assault infantery and not as a lineholding phalanx. I think that at the moment a Hoplitai decides to switch to sword, he stops fighting in the phalanx, ergo he shoudn't get the low density. (I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)

I just think that they should definately perform better, right now it could just make people think why the Greeks even bothered to fight as Hoplites..

I agree with you, they should. But giving them a too low density, especially if they have swords, makes them too powerful.

Perhaps we should make a new thread about that topic?

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Phalanx300]

About the "semi", just another prove, that English is not my first language. I meant 'mixed' culture Hoplites, how antisocialmunky already said. And IMO they should fight in a looser formation. That would be Syrakosioi, Massaliotai, Triarii (even if they are elites), and perhaps the Indogreek Hoplites (even if they are elites too). About the Hypaspistai, it's true that their unitdescription says, that they fought as Hoplitai, but in game, you use them more as a assault infantery and not as a lineholding phalanx. I think that at the moment a Hoplitai decides to switch to sword, he stops fighting in the phalanx, ergo he shoudn't get the low density. (I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)

I only support that for the Syrakosioi, there is not really evidence as far as I'm aware that the others fought in a looser formation then the usual Hoplite Phalanx. And for Hypaspistai, I would say to give them 0.23 as well, I care more for the Historical accuracy then how they are usually used ingame. The Macedonian assault infantry should by now be the Peltastai Makedonikoi, there is a reason that they came to be.