Will we see all full first-rate fleets?

[Miracle]

have you got a link to the stats for that? :)

Here you go:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...0&postcount=20

Although this would become obsolete within a few days.

[geala]

For me the only reason to play with full stacks of 1st or 2nd rate SoLs would be if it would be absolutely necessary because of AI behavior. I don't hope so. I like it a bit more historically.

By the way, some stats of the ships are a bit strange. Perhaps it was discussed elsewhere already. SoLs were often slightly faster than frigates, the bigger the faster, but they needed a very long time to achieve end speed. So because we lack an acceleration stat the lower speed of SoLs is acceptable. But why do have 1st rate Sols less range than other SoLs?? Just for some game play balance reasons I assume? But it should be the reverse, 1st and 2nd rates should be just slow to build and very expensive, nothing else.

*waiting for modders*

[NimitsTexan]

1st/2nd Rates were, in fact, invariably slower than frigates and such. There is nothing ahistorical about that.

Range is of course, wrong, and I wonder if that is a typo/bug in the stats, especially as even the 6th Rate has more range.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

1st/2nd Rates were, in fact, invariably slower than frigates and such. There is nothing ahistorical about that.

Actually, speeds were roughly the same. SOL might have been bigger then frigates, they packed a lot more sail too.
I think the perception that SOL are inherently slower might stem from the Royal Navy where SOL had a long service life. This resulted in aged ships of older designs and thus often slower then their contemporaries. The French navy, having heavy losses inflicted upon them fairly frequently, had to commission new ships more often, resulting in brand spanking new SOL of the latest modern designs. Their reputation for speed was consequently very good.

Range is of course, wrong, and I wonder if that is a typo/bug in the stats, especially as even the 6th Rate has more range.

I think CA may have had in mind the slightly lesser range of three decked ships. The heavy guns were on a lower deck then on two deckers and this caused a noticeable drop in range. IMHO they've not only exaggerated the difference, they got it wrong in that the three decked 2nd rate isn't similairly disadvantaged.

[Sir Beane]

SOL's were not greatly slower than Frigates (although they were slightly). They were much, much less manoeverable however. Pirate sloops and brigs could usually run rings around them in the reef-filled waters of the caribbean. Thats why you need smaller ships, for intercept and pirate-hunting duties.

[Furunculus]

i got the impression from reading o'brien that frigates were quite often faster, however this advantage reversed in heavy seas where the greater weight of SoL allowed them greater headway.

[Sir Beane]

i got the impression from reading o'brien that frigates were quite often faster, however this advantage reversed in heavy seas where the greater weight of SoL allowed them greater headway.

It's certainly true that in heavy seas bigger ships are more stable and therefore sail better.

[timski]

I've been playing the demo naval battle a lot, trying to understand tactics better. I've been playing on Very Hard difficulty, leaving some of the ships out of the action completely, to simulate a really difficult battle.

Using the first 4 ships (ignoring the pair of 4th rate), I can win the battle with a lose of under 10% of sailors and no ships.

The basic tactics are:

1. Line astern formation, highest rates at the front (the battle's default), full sails, fire at will. You will be aiming to pilot the first ship such that there is always something for your ships to fire at. While it may seem attractive to micromanage the cannon, that isn't practical in a large battle.

2. Round shot. My aim is to sink the attacker, and this is the most efficient way of doing it. Chain shot seems to be a waste, because either the wind is irrelevant, or the enemy are "sailing" without sails. I suspect grape shot will be situational - for use in pirate-style operations when one wants to capture a vessel.

3. Your aim as commander is to steer your line such that it curves around the enemy, with the enemy forced turn a tighter circle than you. The curve tends to bring all your fleet's guns to bare on the same enemy ship (or small set of enemy ships), concentrating fire without forcing you to micromanage individual targets.

4. Don't get too close, or the enemy will attempt to cross your line. At best this will make circling harder, since the enemy will be on more flanks. At worst it will cause a collision, which takes a vast amount of time to recover from and may cost you the battle (manual steering of a collided vessel is highly recommended, since the path-finding tends to go horribly wrong when ships are too close).

5. However, the key to winning against the odds is to use both sides of your ships to soak damage (while damaging the enemy on just one side). This, of course means changing the direction of the circle during the battle, normally by crossing their line. Sailing with the wind seems to help when attempting this, possibly because your ships are easier to manouver.

6. Keep an eye on your lower-rate ships at the back: Firstly, ensure they do not catch and sail parallel to slower ships (thus blocking the firepower of one ship). Second, while lower-rate ships can do reasonable damage to ships already weakened by the front of your line, they cannot take damage: The end of your line may becopme vulnerable if your line itself becomes encircled.

7. If one ship is looking particularly fragile, don't be afraid to pull it out of the line, and shield it with other ships. Remember ships behave differently from ground troops: Generally ships can soak a lot of damage before you see a reduction in the amount of damage they can do. In contrast troop combat effectiveness tends to decline in proportion to damage sustained.

Now, if I take the lead 1st rate ship out of play, and use all the other ships, this strategy fails horribly. Even though I'm using more "points" in the fleet (total build cost or upkeep is higher), I struggle to even win:

In this second scenario, the French play much more aggressively, repeatedly trying to break through my line. As if they are no longer afraid. Even if the line holds, I'm not able to bring as many guns to bare as I was before (while there should be more firepower in total, it is spread over 5 ships, not 4, so it takes longer to form a circle at the start). Keeping my ships afloat is harder: The 2nd rate vessel now leading cannot take as much damage, so the original tactics aren't as strong. The wildcard is that my admiral is not active in the second battle, so presumably all combat vessels take a morale penalty of some kind.

The obvious conclusion is still that higher-rate ships are worth disproportionately more than their relative build or upkeep cost. So a fleet full of 1st-rate ships is logical for large battles.

But this all overlooks a flaw in the French tactics: The French fleet consists of 3rd rate (and the odd 4th rate) ships, which should be able to decline combat with my 1st and 2nd rate ships: Force me to send my 2 or 4 lower-rate ships against their 7 lower-rate ships, while keeping my 2 higher-rate ships at a safe distance.

There may also be a cavalry-like function to the lower-rate ships: You may want a few faster ships in your fleet, simply to stop the enemy continually fleeing.

So the campaign may not be as simple as "build the biggest boats".

[Sir Beane]

Update!

After having played the game for a while I can safely say you won't see all First rate fleets because they are actually pretty hard to get and very expensive to run. The biggest ship I have seen so far was a 4th Rater, and it was on my side.

[A Very Super Market]

Do you start out with any?

[Sir Beane]

Do you start out with any?

Nope, my most powerful starting ship was a Fifth rate, and I am Britian. I doubt anyone else has anyhting better.

[Malkut]

Nope, this just isn't gonna happen. They're really hard to get, they sail against the wind poorly, the upkeep is immense, and they have an Achilles heel in rockets. You'd be better off with the monetary equivalent in 3rd rates.

[AussieGiant]

I'm not so sure they will be useless.

I'm certainly keen on getting a few 1st rates stationed at some of the natural bottlenecks and making nations run a gauntlet.

The Channel, Gibraltar and the Bosporus spring to mind. I certainly like the idea of controlling who and what gets through these points.

A few 100 Gun monsters will make that a task and a half in a confined space, I just hope the bottle necks have smaller battle maps...it would be great to be on top of them as soon as you hit the start button.