Native American factions overpowered?

[andrewt]

BTW: Units only armed with melee weapons should be outgunned easily. Even the Scottish fielded only a small percentage of their units with their "typical" melee weapons at Culladon.

I've started wondering about this ever since I started playing Empire. It seems units only get a few shots off before melee starts if one side decides to charge. I was wondering how pure, melee units got obsolete if that was the case since a guy with sword/shield/armor should have an advantage against the earlier infantry. Perhaps range is lower in Empire compared to what it was historically as a balancing mechanism.

[ArtillerySmoke]

I've started wondering about this ever since I started playing Empire.

How long has it been?

[andrewt]

How long has it been?

Since yesterday! But yeah, it seems you can close pretty fast to melee range.

Also, the natives are only slightly weaker in firepower but a lot weaker in melee, at least in the RTI campaign. I've taken to rushing them in melee.

[Dayve]

I've also had frustrations against the American natives. I had an entire army, including 3 sets of 12 iber cannons, dragoons, line infantry and all the auxiliaries that go with them, completely wiped out when i was ambushed by some tribe in north-west Canada. I started with 1,200 men, they had double that amount, i killed 300 of them, they killed 1,123 of mine... all that escaped was a unit of native indian musket mercenaries. The irony!

Don't forget, these people are savage in melee combat and will go through any musket infantry you put in front of them. I've watched them charge at units of British line infantry, take a volley, lose 1/6 of their men, clash with the line infantry and wipe them out in under 15 seconds.

Their archers are also a pain... longer range than anything you have, save cannons, and inflict massive casualties. That's where your rangers come in, or even better, cavalry.

[Oleander Ardens]

Screenshots requested!

What kind of bayonets did you have? With solid ring long boyonet a well trained unit has a long spear with which they should be able to hold more than their own against lightly armored foes.

It is sad that archers seem to do overly well given that Indians tried to get muskets instead as fast as possible.

BTW: This comes from somebody who was quite decent with a heavy bow.

[ArtillerySmoke]

I've also had frustrations against the American natives. I had an entire army, including 3 sets of 12 iber cannons, dragoons, line infantry and all the auxiliaries that go with them, completely wiped out when i was ambushed by some tribe in north-west Canada. I started with 1,200 men, they had double that amount, i killed 300 of them, they killed 1,123 of mine... all that escaped was a unit of native indian musket mercenaries. The irony!

Don't forget, these people are savage in melee combat and will go through any musket infantry you put in front of them. I've watched them charge at units of British line infantry, take a volley, lose 1/6 of their men, clash with the line infantry and wipe them out in under 15 seconds.

Their archers are also a pain... longer range than anything you have, save cannons, and inflict massive casualties. That's where your rangers come in, or even better, cavalry.

LOL...you got worked by Native Americans.

J/K, but seriously ...it's good that I'm seeing so many reports of people getting beat. M2TW was a cakewalk for everyone day 1.

[Subotan]

That's kinda what happened, right? A huge army would march off into the woods of North America, only to disappear, and never be seen again.

[Fisherking]

That's kinda what happened, right? A huge army would march off into the woods of North America, only to disappear, and never be seen again.

Well it did happen at least three time dealing with the Shawnee and Miami that I can think of.

French & Indians vs. Braddock and twice with Americans. Anthony Wayne finally won at Fallen Timbers. (Indian camp hit by tornado)
His was the third expedition with the first being whipped, the punitive expedition being wiped out and him training his force for more than a year before taking them on. He also made sure he took the Choctaw with him. He may have been Mad Anthony but he was no fool.


There is more to it of course, but that is the thumbnail.

[Beskar]

In my Campaign as USA, I notice I had a massive disadvantage to everyone in terms of technology, structure, economy, etc, untill I poured like 10-20 turns into turning myself into a power house. Problem with that, people built up their armies so I always been on the lower end of the army spectrum.

In my Confederate campaign, I had to blitz India due to Muhul just making sure I got no money and Mysore attacking me. In the end, when I unified it, I turned it into a powerhouse akin to modern India, I am getting profits of around 50,000 per turn, which I used to buy Riga and Ruperts Town for staging grounds in America and Europe. Also to buy technology from everyone.

[DisruptorX]

In my Campaign as USA, I notice I had a massive disadvantage to everyone in terms of technology, structure, economy, etc, untill I poured like 10-20 turns into turning myself into a power house. Problem with that, people built up their armies so I always been on the lower end of the army spectrum.

In my Confederate campaign, I had to blitz India due to Muhul just making sure I got no money and Mysore attacking me. In the end, when I unified it, I turned it into a powerhouse akin to modern India, I am getting profits of around 50,000 per turn, which I used to buy Riga and Ruperts Town for staging grounds in America and Europe. Also to buy technology from everyone.

India starts off tough, at war with the Moghuls, and with Mysore and Portugal attacking you after a few turns. Once you get the ball rolling though, and unify India, its money central. I had too much money to spend by the end.

As for native americans, I found that the 17th century militias you get in the beginning are very useful, being equipped with plate armor and swords. They win fairly easily in melee unless flanked. I never really had much trouble with the natives.

[Marquis of Roland]

I've also had frustrations against the American natives. I had an entire army, including 3 sets of 12 iber cannons, dragoons, line infantry and all the auxiliaries that go with them, completely wiped out when i was ambushed by some tribe in north-west Canada. I started with 1,200 men, they had double that amount, i killed 300 of them, they killed 1,123 of mine... all that escaped was a unit of native indian musket mercenaries. The irony!

Don't forget, these people are savage in melee combat and will go through any musket infantry you put in front of them. I've watched them charge at units of British line infantry, take a volley, lose 1/6 of their men, clash with the line infantry and wipe them out in under 15 seconds.

Their archers are also a pain... longer range than anything you have, save cannons, and inflict massive casualties. That's where your rangers come in, or even better, cavalry.

LOL yeah I just fought that battle in RTI myself the other day. They probably killed you when half their army jumped out of the bushes opposite the other half right? Fortunately for me I had units of line infantry as my 2nd line and so I simply about faced and opened fire point blank. I also still had my cavalry uncommitted so they had a chance to roll up their flank. Still took about 400 or so casualties though

[Megas Methuselah]

Lmao, this thread makes me proud. I hope someone quickly gets an unpacker for ETW soon, I can't wait to play as all the minor factions, especially the Native Americans!

[A Very Super Market]

Fine, take your sick pleasure from the christians, but my Ottomans have taken over Malta and are now looking over the Atlantic.... :D

[pevergreen]

Lmao, this thread makes me proud. I hope someone quickly gets an unpacker for ETW soon, I can't wait to play as all the minor factions, especially the Native Americans!

Oh we have unpackers. We just can't mod.

[Quillan]

I've started wondering about this ever since I started playing Empire. It seems units only get a few shots off before melee starts if one side decides to charge. I was wondering how pure, melee units got obsolete if that was the case since a guy with sword/shield/armor should have an advantage against the earlier infantry. Perhaps range is lower in Empire compared to what it was historically as a balancing mechanism.

It's really a matter of your tech. Until you get Fire By Rank, your unit typically fires one massive volley, then spends the next 20-30 seconds reloading. That gives plenty of time for the target to recover from the volley, charge, and get into melee combat. With Fire By Rank, you should get the front rank to fire, then the second rank, then the third, each a couple of seconds later. This should keep the shock effect rolling.