Jury Ruling(s) Needed.

[IrishHitman]

http://www.mediafire.com/?1kyymuzczey

I need the jury to make a few rulings on one of antisocialmunkey's actions and unit rosters.
In case any of you think this is a personal thing because I lost, I'll concede defeat regardless of the judgement, although I'd like to fight munkey again if allowed.
My primary concern is the tournament.

- Is use of the "penetration" exploit allowed?
(Issuing move orders behind an enemy phalanx, and thus bypassing the pikes entirely.)

- Use of six Equites Extraordinarii.
The original cavalry cap was removed as "excessive cavalry spam isn't cost-effective."
Clearly, this battle shows that such spam IS cost-effective for Polybian Romans.

I ask for the reinstitution of the 4 cav max, as well as a mandatory Companion-Thessalian ratio of 1-1 when using the former, in line with Arrian's description of Alexander's cavalry, as four Companions are also overpowered and ahistorical.

- Inquiry about a possible max on elite shock infantry, Mak Peltasts, Hypaspists, Pedites Extraordinarii etc.
Particular with regard to the Romans, who receive them at much cheaper prices compared with the Greeks.

[antisocialmunky]

I'd say only 10% of your force can be cavalry like during the Macedonian Wars. I don't like having to spend 18000 on cavalry to defeat 18000 in cavalry.

As for breaking. Only the 3 pedites did from what I saw. The other principles were pushed back only Pedites are effective when the opponent counters by making his line deeper instead of trying to outwrap my line with phalangites. And to be sucessful, the pedites need to hit one point with as much mass as possible. Otherwise it fizzes out. We have a replay from a 2vs 2 bridge battle that shows jsut that. Its not even that hard to counter. The only problem was that I had 600 cavalry bearing down on his 400 and couldn't close that one hole.

Like I said in the phalanx vs legion thread. It can be countered and its not that hard to unless you're using levies. Heck, if the Greeks spent less on cavalry and more in infantry and actually have enough to support the phalanx, it would be an effective counter.

[Gabeed]

Antisocialmunky, are you allowed to use Camillan triarii for Polybian battle? I can't imagine that using outdated units would be an advantage, I was just wondering why you had them, and whether it was legit. Just out of curiosity, I don't want to seem like I'm nitpicking.

[antisocialmunky]

As far as I remember, yes. I find them better because they have more armor and have higher density.

[tsidneku]

Antisocialmunky, are you allowed to use Camillan triarii for Polybian battle? I can't imagine that using outdated units would be an advantage, I was just wondering why you had them, and whether it was legit. Just out of curiosity, I don't want to seem like I'm nitpicking.

The use of Camillan forces came up when the use of Accensi in my battle with Fluvius Camillus. The ruling was Camillan Era troops (aux. + main) are permitted in a Marian army.

Quote from the Legion vs. Phalanx thread --

Wait a second, I haven't watched the replay yet, but Imperial Archers are Imperial units, not Marian ones... Meaning that he wasn't allowed to use them...

About the Accensi: I think it was decided that players are allowed to use older units (though I don't really like that), meaning that there's no problem with Camillian units in a Polybian Marian army. Also I think that Accensi are still available for rome in the Polybian time frame in the campaign (not sure).

As for army composition, if you were to impose a limit of cavalry -- I think it's important to lower the amount of total mnai. With less cavalry and the same money, the Greek factions can focus on their more elite troops. I think the balance is alright at the moment, the battle depends largely on composition.

[Gabeed]

So why would Camillan units be allowed in a Marian army but not a Polybian one?

[tsidneku]

No clue. :)

[antisocialmunky]

The use of Camillan forces came up when the use of Accensi in my battle with Fluvius Camillus. The ruling was Camillan Era troops (aux. + main) are permitted in a Marian army.

Quote from the Legion vs. Phalanx thread --


As for army composition, if you were to impose a limit of cavalry -- I think it's important to lower the amount of total mnai. With less cavalry and the same money, the Greek factions can focus on their more elite troops. I think the balance is alright at the moment, the battle depends largely on composition.

Um, that was not editted the last time I saw it nor is it mentioned anywhere on the front page. :-\

I don't mind fighting the battle again but all that means is more Pedites. It is a little weird that you would allow Camillan in Marian and not in Polybian. So much for any realism.

[Tolg]

Um, that was not editted the last time I saw it nor is it mentioned anywhere on the front page. :-\

I don't mind fighting the battle again but all that means is more Pedites. It is a little weird that you would allow Camillan in Marian and not in Polybian. So much for any realism.

That's not it.

IIRC someone asked in the other thread if it was alright to use Velites in a Marian army as they don't have any skirmishers anymore. The only answer he got was that one could use all units from all previous reforms. (I don't even remember who said it, but I believe it was a jury member) I didn't agree with that for obvious reasons, but I didn't want to delay the tournament buy starting a discussion over what I believed to be only a minor matter. (Perhaps that was a failure on my part) When the discussion about the Accensi arose I said exactly this, just with a few words less.

I want to point out again, this is if I recall correctly.


If I'm right then atm Camillian units are allowed in Polybian armies, but I don't think that it should stay this way.

[antisocialmunky]

Marian Armies need spear support so you should give them atleast some Samnites.

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

I know this is not the most appropriate place, but what are the rulings on auxilliaries, can I use Illyrian, samnites, Bruttians etc... to support my armies in Polybians?

[Tolg]

Should be in the original thread, but since it's too late anyway I might as well answer:

Alloed are the units listed here.



As stated in the rules:

The Rulebook:
Unit limitation I Unit recruitment shall be limited to those units published on the EB website for each respective faction.
Check here.

[miotas]

how do i watch the replay? the file is only about 200kb and in a format my computer cant read?

[Tolg]

We should add a note about this in the first post of the analysis thread...


The replays are saved as RTW replay files, you have to save the replay file in the [Rome:Total War]/EB/replays folder (you can create it if it isn't there yet), then start singleplayer EB, Load Game -> Load battle replay and select your replay.

[miotas]

excellent. thanks, ill watch it later, my laptop has internet but isnt powerful enough to play games and my desktop has no internet connection, so you can imagine the fun and games i have when i need to active a game online

[Phalanx300]

Irish I totally agree!


Also, Roman units should belong to their time frame! I don't think its accurate to see Camillan Romans fighting in Marian time.

Also, the Roman time frame should once again fit to their opponent. (like Camillan for Epeiros) Otherwise I suggest to let players choose their own time frame, which would be better then to do it semi-Historical, might aswell make it more fun then.

And for Epeiros, I suggest that the 6 Phalangite limit will be removed, Epeiros relied more on a Infantry/Phalangite force supporting eachother. A 3 or 4 limit would be more Historical.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

While I'm not involved in this I can answer two historical questions.

1. The Camillian/Polybian Consular Army was 12.5% Cavaly, of which 1/4 were romani citizens and 1/4 extraordinarii, with the remaining 1/2 being Socii regulars. This is according to Polybias, the total Cavalry numbered 2,400, probably with 900 on each wing and 600 (extraordinarii) in reserve.

2. As far as the Roman "eras" go, there is evidence for cross-over with the immidiately previous era. Sulla used Velites in a reformed army when fighting Marius, for example. I would, however, say that Camillian units in a Marian army was historically absurd.

[antisocialmunky]

1.) That's about three and a half units of cavalry.(300ish)

[Βελισάριος]

We should add a note about this in the first post of the analysis thread...

Done.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For reference the Infantry in the army were 12,000, (1200 extraordinarii) the Skirmishers (Velites) were 4,800

Total 19,200 (inc. cavalry).

[antisocialmunky]

1/3rd Velites, I don't think that's going to happen given how bullet proof the main line of phalangites is.

But 10% Extraordinarii would be fine by me(rounded to the nearest number that is). Honestly, I'd rather hear discussion on the breaching strategy. Whether or not people think it is fair or not.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Frankly, anyone who allows Roman infantry to punch through a pike line deserves everything he gets. If your pikes are in six ranks, as they should be, it flat out shouldn't be possible.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I've tried breaching myself and it's a strategy that pays little for too much cost. I would rather have the legions on Guard Mode right in front of the pikes so they protect themselves with the shields and stand their ground, rather than impaling my men at such a venture.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

After testing this strategy again, I must say that I was terribly wrong. The best guys adept at "breaching" are the Dacian Falxmen and everyone with a high lethality rate (assault troops). I used a dense formation of Rhophaioroi and pointed it right to the front of the phalanx, periodically clicking behind the enemy to make sure they were infiltrating well, then clicking to attack. The result was a hole in the middle of the phalangites and ended up with them routing after prolongued close combat and astoningly little casualties. And they were ordinary six liner Phalanx formations, perhaps a warning for players to use denser ones in MP especially if the enemy has such nasty troops.

My casualty rate was usually 100% for the enemy and at best 50% with Romphaiaroi vs. Argyraspidai. Ordinary Drapanai obtain good results being used en masse at a single spot; since they are extremely cheap, their casualties won't matter as much. Versus an ordinary levy phalanx I had as little as 20% casualties with the Rhophaiaroi.

[Tolg]

Indeed, penetraition is very much effective if it is done right, everyone who's of an other oppinion should try playing ASM, I'm confidend he'll prove you wrong. (With normal roman units, not with kickass Thraikioi Rhomph.)


Now the question is, should it be allowed to click behind your enemy's phalanx to bypass the pikes?

I don't have much experience wih this tactic (I'll always prefer flanking anyway, it doesn't make your line so untidy) so I'll have to ask:

1) Is it even possible to penetrate a phalanx without clicking behind them?

2) What's the kill/losses ratio a) when clicking behind the phalanx b) without clicking behind the phalanx? (Until the Phalnx is entirely broken and all or most Phalangites at the penetrated part of the line are using their swords)

3) How much mass is needed for an successful breakthrough?

4) What can the Greek general do to prevent his enemies from breaking trough?

[Silence Hunter]

1) Is it even possible to penetrate a phalanx without clicking behind them?

Yes it is possible. Though it depends on the situation (quality of troops and numbers). However expect high losses (which is IMHO a realistic thing).

2) What's the kill/losses ratio a) when clicking behind the phalanx b) without clicking behind the phalanx? (Until the Phalnx is entirely broken and all or most Phalangites at the penetrated part of the line are using their swords)

a) I don't know as I, presonally, consider this as cheating.
b) losses are high. There is a high chance that phalanx will hold. However this depends on quality, mass and numbers of your and enemy troops.

3) How much mass is needed for an successful breakthroug?

If you are using the "click behind phalanx method" it can be done with the single unit. However if you just attack at least two units are needed to make a push strong enough (numbers also play their part in here as phalanx on huge is 240 men, while most infantry units only 160).

4) What can the Greek general do to prevent his enemies from breaking trough?

Charge reserves on the attacking foe. Once they engage retreat the phalanx and reform it. Then march it back into position. However you are likely to suffer large losses while retreating the phalanx, but it at least saves your line (most of the times and if countered properly).

[satalexton]

I still think the romans ought to have the advantages pitted for them, take it as our pity for the barbaroi, and an equalizer for the inferior beings.

Also, it makes every victory for the hellenes all the more justified, honourable and heroic.

ALL HAIL MAKEDONIA!!!!

[Novellus]

I have broken apart a phalanx in a frontal assault one time. It was an unusual circumstance.

The phalanx was arranged like this:

..................................................<
..............................>....................<
..................................................<


My unit was a lone unit of Spartiartai Hoplitai in guard mode. Oddly, the direction of the spears of the phalanx at the time was this way:


..................................................^
..............................>....................^
..................................................^

So I had a giant flank to attack. So I charged in. However, due to the RTW Engine, the phalanx simply changed the direction of the spears toward my forces. But before my soldiers were completely shoved back, I took my soldiers off of guard mode and left the soldiers as they were. I went off to fight the rest of the battle on the other side of the field as they were being overwhelmed by other forces.

When I came back, The enemy phalanx looked like this:


..................................................<
.......................................................><
..................................................<


What had essentially happened was that the hoplitai pushed through the pikes and shoved them apart in the left and right directions of the Syntagma. The hoplitai essentially became a wedge, which I did not think was possible with the RTW engine. The enemy phalanx consisted of Pezhetairoi, which were not pushovers by any means. It might have been an odd fluke, but that was one instance where a phalanx was in fact penetrated. In the end, the unit did not take very many casualties. Yes, the Spartiartai are considered elite, but the fact that hoplitai could break through might be a sign that even classical hoplitai can break through phalanxes as well. I will have to test this again.

[antisocialmunky]

The easiest way to counter it is to use a thick formation and good reserves. Hoplites in defense mode work or if you're feeling evil, run a unit of phalangites behind the one that gets hit. Its really hard to make it work twice after your men are tired. You can reasonable expect to get only 1 charge out of your guys unless you want them to suffer really high losses.

And you have to do it right or you end up with an Abu Simbel.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I do not consider this particular tactic as cheating. The description for the Kluddolon clearly mentions they used similar tactics to break through Phalanxes, but since diving into the ground and crawling quickly to gut phalangites is not possible with the current engine, let's just say that in a real situation the Thraikioi employed a similar infiltration exploit with success.

And while particularly anyone can do it the Getai are the best because of their super high lethality assault troops which are just perfect in close combat. Nothing beats Cordinau Orca doing this.