Legion vs. Phalanx online tournament

[Silence Hunter]

Anyway... Anti and Irish, why haven't you massacred each other yet? Maion, is TWF still not replying? Alex and Potocello? Wodewick and Silence Hunter PM'd me that they'd set up a battle, has it been fought already?

Me and Wodewick are having our match tomorrow. Will post the results as soon as we finish.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yep, still no reply.

Maion

[Tolg]

If BurningEgo, Rootje and TWFanatic are out, perhaps Burebista can take TWF's place? He isn't in the tournament yet, is he?

[Maion Maroneios]

No problem with me, I just don't want to win because my opponent couldn't contact me

Maion

[IrishHitman]

Anyway... Anti and Irish, why haven't you massacred each other yet? Maion, is TWF still not replying? Alex and Potocello? Wodewick and Silence Hunter PM'd me that they'd set up a battle, has it been fought already?

Keep your pants on, I'll beat anti to death with his own leg soon enough.
Tonight probably.

[antisocialmunky]

http://files.filefront.com/ASMvsIris.../fileinfo.html

So yeah, enjoy this huge battle in the woods. I'm not going to claim victory or anything until the jury reviews my phalangite breaching strategy. It was very close and it came down to the 3 Pedites extraordinary dog piling one units of phalangites and rolling up the rear atleast that's what I saw during the battle. My Principles charged the phalangites and were pushed back because Irish matched my line length and marched in 8 deep. I ended up hesitating because I wasn't sure until his phalangites shifted position.

Anyways, if the jury has any questions about the effectiveness of this tactic and the pros and cons or anything, I'll be happy to answer or demonstrate when and when it doesn't work.

And if anyone cares, I was trying to recreate this tactic I found on wikipedia minus the missiles:

Other anti-phalanx tactics
"Breaking phalanxes" illustrates more of the Roman army's flexibility. When the Romans faced phalangite armies, the legions often deployed the velites in front of the enemy with the command to contendite vestra sponte, to cause confusion and panic into the solid blocks of the phalanxes. Meanwhile, auxilia archers were deployed on the wings of the legion in front of the cavalry, in order to defend their withdrawal. These archers were ordered to eiaculare flammas, fire incendiary arrows into the enemy. The cohorts then advanced in a wedge formation, supported by the velites' and auxiliaries' fire, and charged into the phalanx at a single point, breaking it, then flanking it with the cavalry to seal the victory. See the Battle of Beneventum for evidence of fire-arrows being used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_m...halanx_tactics

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Just my comments on this particular battle: first, I agree wholeheartedly, to whoever mentioned it first, that the troop compositions in this battle seem to be beyond reality. I mean, WTH? There were too many Hetairoi and Extraordinarii for any historically or logically plausible situation. Ergo, it might be possible according to the financial strains of the game, but in my view it seems too illogical and as an EB'er I don't like situations that stray away from history too much.

Next time you might experiment with more historically accurate situations: tweak down elites by rule, put up levies and line troops in the troop composition as a matter of principle. Then slug it each other in more demanding situations.

EDIT - As for the battle itself. I don't know if this is some kind of MP situation, since I'm unexperienced with MP, but there were many situations were troops that could be moving were instead astray or being mowed down in humiliating situations. I mean, what were these Hetairoi doing idle when the Phalanxes were being surrounded by munky's infantry?

[antisocialmunky]

They were hiding in the woods to counter my cavalry charge. If it had hit his phalangites left side with those 600 horses, it would have been over even if I lost most of those horses. You should have had seen the first game of the night that involved my phalangites running all over the map.

Also it was in the woods... I think we both regretted that.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Really? It happened later in the battle and the Hetairoi were not hiding in the woods but rather idle on the open. Well I guess it has to do with RTW's 100% trustable battle replays. I remember how they turned one of my victories into a loss .

[tsidneku]

Epic battle, guys! Especially on Huge scale. :) It was a very enjoyable watch.

I agree -- I think the turning point was when two of your cavalry crashed into the back of their centre line. Granted, I think the sheer mass of your pedites extraordinarii blowing up on his centre phalanx sort of destroyed any chance of that holding for long.

To be honest, I think it would have been hard for Irish to defeat you with an identical army composition. It's really hard to counter cavalry without more cavalry... or I guess, theoretically more heavy infantry to cover flanks.

[IrishHitman]

Epic battle, guys! Especially on Huge scale. :) It was a very enjoyable watch.

I agree -- I think the turning point was when two of your cavalry crashed into the back of their centre line. Granted, I think the sheer mass of your pedites extraordinarii blowing up on his centre phalanx sort of destroyed any chance of that holding for long.

To be honest, I think it would have been hard for Irish to defeat you with an identical army composition. It's really hard to counter cavalry without more cavalry... or I guess, theoretically more heavy infantry to cover flanks.

My Companions did well enough.
His cav was very messed up by the time my Agrianians jumped in as well.
Only interference from Triarii saved his remaining cavalry, and then those almost fell to the Agrianians as well.

[antisocialmunky]

So were your Companions. But I agree, those Agrianians in woods were ridiculous.

[alexanderthegreater]

Just my comments on this particular battle: first, I agree wholeheartedly, to whoever mentioned it first, that the troop compositions in this battle seem to be beyond reality. I mean, WTH? There were too many Hetairoi and Extraordinarii for any historically or logically plausible situation. Ergo, it might be possible according to the financial strains of the game, but in my view it seems too illogical and as an EB'er I don't like situations that stray away from history too much.

Next time you might experiment with more historically accurate situations: tweak down elites by rule, put up levies and line troops in the troop composition as a matter of principle. Then slug it each other in more demanding situations.

EDIT - As for the battle itself. I don't know if this is some kind of MP situation, since I'm unexperienced with MP, but there were many situations were troops that could be moving were instead astray or being mowed down in humiliating situations. I mean, what were these Hetairoi doing idle when the Phalanxes were being surrounded by munky's infantry?

I agree and i think it has to do with 40 000 mnai just being to much, you can basically get an arm of all elites with that. Is it still up for discussion?

[antisocialmunky]

BTW guys, here's a army composition excerpt from Quintus Sertorius' Guide to Conduct Becoming of a True Roman (Redux for EB). Too bad we can't actually make most of these armies :-p.

Camillian
The Roman core of a Camillian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Leves
1 unit of Accensi
1 unit of Rorarii
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
2 unit of Triarii
Optional: 1 unit of Equites (your FM tribune/legate can count as Roman cavalry)

The two socii alae are composed as follows:
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian or Gallic infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 unit of classical hoplites
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Polybian
The Roman core of a Polybian consular army is two legions, represented by the following units:
1 unit of Velites
1 unit of Accensi
2 units of Hastati
2 units of Principes
1 unit of Triarii (or two if you're playing with half-sized maniples)
Optional: 1 unit of Equites (your FM tribune/legate can count as Roman cavalry)

The two socii alae are composed as follows:
2 units of allied skirmishers (any mix of javelineers, archers and slingers)
4 units of allied infantry (two different pairs of Samnite, Lucanian, Bruttium, Ligurian, Gallic, or Iberian infantry)
1 unit of pedites extraordinarii
1 or 2 units of allied cavalry (Campanian, Greek, Gallic, Ligurian or anything else available, or possibly equites extraordinarii)

Marian
The Roman core of a Marian army is as follows:
1st Legion
1 General
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of antesignani

2nd Legion
1 tribune
1 unit of First Cohort
1 unit of cohors reformata
1 unit of cohors evocata

Support
1 unit of Scorpions/arrow throwers

The allied part is as follows:
1 unit of allied javelin-men
1 unit of allied slingers or archers
1 unit of allied cavalry
Optional: 2 units of allied close-order foot

This represents two legions and their supporting artillery, light troops, cavalry and allied infantry. Feel free to add additional support units. A third legion can be presented by adding three more cohorts as above.

An option for early post-Marian troops is to have just the First Cohort and two normal cohorts as one legion, since there were as yet no veterans to draw upon.

Disposition
Camillian and Polybian armies should be deployed in the triplex acies, three lines giving strength in depth and keeping most of your forces in reserve. Marian forces can be deployed in three, two or even one line as befits the situation.

Key:
Gen - The general
FM - Family member
Tri - Triarii (or allied hoplites)
Pri - Principes
Has - Hastati
Ski - Accensi/Leves/Velites
Ror - Roraii
ASk - Allied Skirmisher
ALI - Allied Light Infantry
AHI - Allied Heavy Infantry
Cav - Cavalry

Camillian and Polybian

----ASk----Ski----Ski----ASk
Cav-----ALI----Has----Has----ALI----FM/Cav
----AHI-----Pri-----Pri-----AHI
--------Ror-----Tri-----Tri-----Gen

Placement of the General varies, as long as he's behind the fighting line it doesn't really matter. Put the extraordinarii wherever you want to, or keep in reserve with the general. The only difference between Camillian and Polybian armies is the absence of the Rorarii.

[Βελισάριος]

Alright, chaps... starting today/tomorrow morning (Monday, Mar 16) Round 2 is underway.
There are still two battles left to play, between HunGeneral and alexanderthegreater and Silence Hunter vs. Wodewick that are still part of Round 1, but in the meantime, we can start the second round.

I want to remind you that, at this point, the score is 3-2 in favour of the Greeks (check battle analysis thread for more details).

Before I post the match-ups, I want everyone to study the rules on the first page, which have been updated and familiarise yourselves with them and the possible armies you can create.

I'll post the match-ups later today as well as send out PMs with notifications to all.

[tsidneku]

For further clarification -- to the closest possible ratio, right?

e.g:

4 cavalry units -- 3 elites -- 5 levies -- 8 standards. There aren't enough unit slots to quarter it off to be the perfect '2-3-1" levy-standard-elite ratio.

[Βελισάριος]

Originally, that was the intention, since I couldn't find a reasonable ratio to span the full-stack.

But, now that I think about it, here's a better one: Min. 4 Levies, Max. 3 elites.
"General" units, Somatophylakes Strategou and Eqvites Consulari don't count as elites (or anything else, for that matter).

[antisocialmunky]

That's pretty good and straight forward but what happened to Roman allies? I will not play Marian without allies. I'm sorry but that's just suicidal and unrealistic. You don't have the cavalry for it nor do you have anysort of worthwhile counter.

Camillan/Polybian: 1 Light infantry (Velites, Accensi, Hastati Samnitici, Rorarii) – 1 Hastati – 2 Principes – 1 Triarii -1 Pedites Extraordinarii/Other elite unit.

Marian: 1 Antesignani – 1 Cohors Evocata – 2 Cohors Reformata

I'm assuming you made a mistake in the Camillian/Polybian because there is NO 'Other Elite Unit,' NONE. And I'm assuming that we can use 1st Cohorts instead of Evocata since they are cheaper and have good stamina. Also I'm assuming as well that we can choose to not bring Antesignani as to not totally bankrupt ourselves.

[Phalanx300]

Yes, the Romans should be able to have allies. Maybe the Koinen should also be able to have styled armies? In which I mean a Syracusian army, Massilian army or a Bosporan army? A Spartan and Rhodian army can be represented yet the units from above armier are not on the KH faction site.

Also 2 things on the updated rules.

1) A mistake, after saying which are elite units it says Spartiatai/Ekdromoi, it should be: Spartiatai/Epileptikoi.

2) It says 1 hastati, it should be: 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii. It should also be 2 Roman missle units(in which I mean velites, leves, rorarii, accensi) Also 1 Equites and 1 Roman bodyguard(or 2 optionally to represent the Tribune). The rest should be allied units in my view.

[antisocialmunky]

Hmm, I rather like that idea. Its rather complex though :) Be rather neat to face off against other powerful polis.

2) IT SHOULD be 2 Hastati and about half your army as allied troops, but I guess the jury doesn't care about historic realism for Romans. I still like having the foot general. On a related note, I guess he's not allowing general's bodyguard units or jsut forgot.

[Βελισάριος]

Yes, the Romans should be able to have allies. Maybe the Koinen should also be able to have styled armies? In which I mean a Syracusian army, Massilian army or a Bosporan army? A Spartan and Rhodian army can be represented yet the units from above armier are not on the KH faction site.

Good suggestion... very good, actually. We can implement that in the next tournament.

Also 2 things on the updated rules.

1) A mistake, after saying which are elite units it says Spartiatai/Ekdromoi, it should be: Spartiatai/Epileptikoi.

You're right on that one... I was stoned when I wrote the rules last night.

2) It says 1 hastati, it should be: 2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii. It should also be 2 Roman missle units(in which I mean velites, leves, rorarii, accensi) Also 1 Equites and 1 Roman bodyguard(or 2 optionally to represent the Tribune). The rest should be allied units in my view.

2 Hastati, 2 Principes, 1 Triarii and 2 Roman missile units... that's what I wanted to write.
Again... stoned.

Thanksverymuch.

And munky, the Prima Cohors will fall under regular Cohors Reformatae (or whatever the plural is like) and you can have only one per army (I should add that as well).

And what do you mean I'm not allowing General's bodyguard units?
BG's don't count as elites, that's all it says there. Also, we're not forcing you to use them as some people don't feel like spending their money on 20-men units (myself included, unless I get really stingy), so, in that sense, you get an extra cavalry unit if you want. It says in the rules.

Also, it is, was and will be our main concern to aim for the highest degree of historical accuracy in this thread.
But you also have to keep in mind, the point of the whole thing was to pit Legion vs. Phalanx.
If Roman armies are half-allied then that purpose is defeated entirely.

For the next tournament there'll be a much wider range of units to be selected, but that takes time, patience and careful selection.
If you would care to offer your suggestions on the topic, I'd be more than happy to take them into consideration and would be much obliged.

In the meantime, remarks such as "the jury doesn't really care for historic realism" is unnecessary and rather ridiculous coming from someone who fields the type of armies that you do, ASM. If you want historical realism, play historically accurate.

Look at my battle with Maion, except for the 4 Triarii (momentary slip, sorry), my army fit the requisites of the rules just nicely.
Yeah, I lost... but that was a tactical error, not because of a chink in the army's armour... or, rather, its formation.

Once more, I'm open to your suggestions and I thank you for the help so far.
I'll go make the necessary edits.

[antisocialmunky]

You do realise that the armies I have been fielding in test battles are fairly realistic and that the Roman Legion was not just romans but Romans + Allies right? 4 Hastati, 4 Principles, 2 Triari, 2 Samnites, 2 Lucianians, 2 Pedites, 2 Equites Extraordinari, 2 Polybian Equites. The only armies I did cheese on were the ones that were allowed under the first round rules just like Tolg's 50/50 Triarii, Pedites army(not to pick on him). Any why shouldn't we have? The Greeks weren't using their low level infantry, so why should the Romans? Atleast its more balanced this time around.

But the issue is that you or the jury or whoever comes up with these rules aren't allowing people to play historically accurate because the Romans don't have their allies. That is historically inaccurate. The phalanx has its supporting troops but the Legion doesn't have ANY in Marian. Just because the Diadochi's supporting troops are 'native' and the Roman support is 'allied.'

How is that fair or historically accurate? Name one campaign where the Italic Allies weren't present for before Marian and name one campaign after Marian where the legions went in without support and didn't get their salads tossed.

If this was just a legion ves phalanx tournement, well we'd have only legion vs phalanx armies. No cavalry, no support. Just a bunch of legionaires ramming into a bunch of phalanxes. But no, this is a tournement that claims to see if the armies of the Diadochi could defeat the armies of Rome.

As for the bodyguard units, I was under the impression that you would put them in the rules because they aren't. That's why I said "or just forgot."

But whatever, its your tournement. Its just frustrating how you're excluding realistic roman armies. Bottom line: Post-Marian is going to blow because Rome loses any sort of initiative and heavy cavalry will be taking out 30-40 legionaires each charge and only take about 4 casualites each time.

I've said my peace. I'm tired of arguing the same crap over and over again.

[alexanderthegreater]

I like the rules.

But i have one concern:

with 40 000 mnai the romans can have like a full stack of principes and the hellenes an army of all elite. Shoudln't we turn that down a bit to allow more varied armies?
(Didn't both romans and hellenes historically use a lot of lower quality infantry - leves, auxilia, psiloi, pantodapoi)

Also, the match between me and hungeneral was delayed due to connection issues and is scheduled to happen on friday.

[Gabeed]

Man, I'm editing this post a lot. I just want to ask, what exactly is "heavy cavalry?" Would that be just hetairoi for Hellenic, or does that include xystophoroi, my Ptolemaic Hippeon Klerouchon Agema, etc? What about Lonchophoroi?

I have another question. Does the ratio for levy, standard, elite correspond with number of units, or number of men?

[Βελισάριος]

That's any cavalry that has "heavy" in its description. So Xystophoroi, Thessalikoi are some examples.
Lonchophoroi, Prodromoi, Hippeis are medium. Illyrioi Hippeis are light, etc.

[tsidneku]

Bump? Any news, Burebista?

[Βελισάριος]

Yeah, my internet's dead and I'm typing from work.

Hopefully, I'll be back on this weekend. I have the match-ups on my lap-top, if I still don't get my internet back by tonight, I'll put them on a flash card and type them from here.

I'd like to see the look on my boss' face :p

[antisocialmunky]

Chances are they've already been recording your visits here.

[Βελισάριος]

I do tend to log in quite often from the place. Had my ears pulled a few times, but meh... I usually only log on to read stuff and then go back to work.

Anyway. I apologise for the delay. Here are the match-ups for Round II:
(we're a roman short so one of the Romans gets two shots, but the second match will not count for the Roman victory points should it end in a Roman victory, it will count for Greek victory points in the reverse situation, however)

1. Antisocialmunky vs. Gabeed at EB Bruttium Forest Lakes
2. Alexanderthegreater vs. Phalanx300 at EB Peloponessos
3. Wodewick vs. Tsidneku at EB Path to Syracouse
4. Belisarios vs. HunGeneral at EB Liguria
5. Tolg vs. Silence Hunter at EB Gulf of Corinth
6. Fluvius Camillus vs. Maion Maroneios at EB Mount Vesuvius
7. IrishHitman vs. Tolg at EB Ionia (Tolg, as stated above, we pulled your number twice, but this round won't count for your total victory points)

Round I match-ups whose results have still not come in:
HunGeneral vs. Alexanderthegreater
Silence Hunter vs. Wodewick

Hurry up, guys!

Also, Important annoucement:

I am looking for someone with respectable, solid knowledge on ancient history (particularly, Greco-Roman history) to take my place in the jury and also be an overseer of affairs in the tournament, i.e. make sure match-ups are posted on time, results are in when needed, etc.

Preferably, he'd have to be a lifeless sod with a lot of time on his hands, but I can settle for only the latter quality as well.

I am not abandoning the tournament, I'm just taking a break from EB fora, AARs, tournaments and the like, have other priorities at the moment that require my urgent attention.
I will, however, retain the right to veto any jury decision and I want all PMs and discussions of the jury to be forwarded to me.

I apologise to my fellow jury members for not letting them know in advance, this was a decision I took whilst internet-less.

[IrishHitman]

7. IrishHitman vs. Tolg at EB Ionia (Tolg, as stated above, we pulled your number twice, but this round won't count for your total victory points)

Two questions:
Why won't our battle count?
Has a decision been made with regard to my requests/inquiries?