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  1. #1
    Member Member Oleander Ardens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russia > France

    It is certainly open to debate why of all countries the British got the best in an english PC Game

    I find it especially funny when people start to cite Waterloo to show who superior the British were when even the 68000 strong Anglo-Netherland army consisted mostly of Germans (Hannover, Brunswick, KGL) and Dutch. Somehow the 50000 Prussians winning the day seem also often amiss when an Englishman recalls the story...

    It is also worthwhile to say that the French army was at its best early in the war. The quality was bleeded white in the long campaigns in Europe against Austria, the guerillia war in Spain and the retreat in Russia.
    Last edited by Oleander Ardens; 03-10-2009 at 16:28.
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    ex Lord Member Melvish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russia > France

    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens View Post
    It is certainly open to debate why of all countries the British got the best in an english PC Game

    I find it especially funny when people start to cite Waterloo to show who superior the British were when even the 68000 strong Anglo-Netherland army consisted mostly of Germans (Hannover, Brunswick, KGL) and Dutch. Somehow the 50000 Prussians winning the day seem also often amiss when an Englishman recalls the story...

    It is also worthwhile to say that the French army was at its best early in the war. The quality was bleeded white in the long campaigns in Europe against Austria, the guerillia war in Spain and the retreat in Russia.
    Not to mention that all the good general were dead or were fired. If Joachim Murat would have not "fallen from grace" and commended the cavalry it would have been a very different battle.

    I agree with you that Blucher maneuvers (retreat&attack) divided the "Grande Armée" in two and open for a flank attack.

    But you have to give the Brits the credits for master minding all the alliance (diplomatic work & financement ) against Napoleon, truly grand works.

    If it is the Prussians that provided the tactical victory at Waterloo it was UK grand strategy that made Prussia to be present at Waterloo.
    I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends. ---Abraham Lincoln

  3. #3
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russia > France

    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens View Post
    It is certainly open to debate why of all countries the British got the best in an english PC Game

    I find it especially funny when people start to cite Waterloo to show who superior the British were when even the 68000 strong Anglo-Netherland army consisted mostly of Germans (Hannover, Brunswick, KGL) and Dutch. Somehow the 50000 Prussians winning the day seem also often amiss when an Englishman recalls the story...

    It is also worthwhile to say that the French army was at its best early in the war. The quality was bleeded white in the long campaigns in Europe against Austria, the guerillia war in Spain and the retreat in Russia.
    British accounts curiously seem to leave out the involvement of the Dutch and Germans at Waterloo. In fact, strangely enough, I've had people argue that the British were the main military force responsible for defeating Napoleon. They never seem to have heard of Austria or Prussia, Russia, Spain, and so forth.

    And, of course, you'll be hard pressed to find a school history book in the US that does any better than mention the Battle of Borodino. Firefox's spellcheck doesn't even pick it up.

    I have never disagreed that the British were the ones who financed the Napoleonic Wars and did a good job of keeping the alliance together. Politics and economics are the strong points of the British, they play their enemies off against each other, organize alliances, and ensure that the people who support them are well paid. It's how they won India.

    But the argument that the British are the superior military force in the world from 1700 to WWII which seems so prevalent is just silly. The British certainly had high quality soldiers, but they lack manpower. You can have as many supersoldiers as you want, but if Russia, France and Austria can all bury your entire army under a mountain of dead it doesn't matter. Russia, in particular, had that war-winning ability to throw soldiers at a problem until it went away, even if the soldiers in question were a bit under/over aged, had a few extra toes or had room-temperature IQ's.

    When all you're doing is giving them a cap and a pike, one sometimes feels that recruitment standards can be a bit relaxed. And fighting the 'antichrist' helps a bit too.
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russia > France

    In the British recall of the story, the British held off his armies till the Prussians came in at the last moment, rather like Gandalf and the Riders of Rohan at the Helms Deep in the Lord of the Rings movie. It if wasn't for the skill involved with holding back his forces, the whole Prussians coming in too late would have been for nothing and a completely different tale.
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    ex Lord Member Melvish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russia > France

    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiusBeskar View Post
    In the British recall of the story, the British held off his armies till the Prussians came in at the last moment, rather like Gandalf and the Riders of Rohan at the Helms Deep in the Lord of the Rings movie. It if wasn't for the skill involved with holding back his forces, the whole Prussians coming in too late would have been for nothing and a completely different tale.
    Indeed, if the main front don't hold there can be no flank...
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    Member Member Lord of the Isles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russia > France

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheogorath View Post
    I have never disagreed that the British were the ones who financed the Napoleonic Wars and did a good job of keeping the alliance together. Politics and economics are the strong points of the British, they play their enemies off against each other, organize alliances, and ensure that the people who support them are well paid. It's how they won India.

    But the argument that the British are the superior military force in the world from 1700 to WWII which seems so prevalent is just silly. The British certainly had high quality soldiers, but they lack manpower.
    Well, speaking as a Brit, you are entirely right. If anything, you've been a little too generous in allocating us strong points, but I would probably add the Royal Navy into the list. It was a much more important factor in our 18th/19th century power than our army, and even it was destined to suffer in comparison to the USN, which had seamen just as well trained but much better treated than ours (with the better morale you'd expect following from that).

  7. #7
    pardon my klatchian Member al Roumi's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Russia > France

    Quote Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens View Post
    It is certainly open to debate why of all countries the British got the best in an english PC Game

    I find it especially funny when people start to cite Waterloo to show who superior the British were when even the 68000 strong Anglo-Netherland army consisted mostly of Germans (Hannover, Brunswick, KGL) and Dutch. Somehow the 50000 Prussians winning the day seem also often amiss when an Englishman recalls the story...

    It is also worthwhile to say that the French army was at its best early in the war. The quality was bleeded white in the long campaigns in Europe against Austria, the guerillia war in Spain and the retreat in Russia.
    And that gentlemen, is i believe the crux of the matter.

    Although at least in ETW the voice work is more varied and accurate than in MTW2, where the Spanish, Portugese, Milanese, Sicilian and Venetian factions all shared the same actors & accents. I think there was also a minor scandal on these very forums about what the names of Russian characters meant...

    I'm British but I don't half get annoyed with the anglo-centricity of any TW games with Britain/England in them. Either their interest in historical research or their desire for consistency of the game with history are lacking -"domus dulcis domus" as a random Scithii settlement in RTW a case in point.

    And then look at the promotional artwork -why is it always Richard the lionheart or a red-coat? I don't know what percentage of sales are based on UK purchases but they are frankly missing the boat IMHO -or maybe no one really cares?

    Cossacks -European wars, now THAT had a more balanced approach to unit types for each faction. Shame about the gameplay though...

    P.s. Sheogarath's rant was most entertaining.

  8. #8
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Russia > France

    Quote Originally Posted by alh_p View Post
    And that gentlemen, is i believe the crux of the matter.

    Although at least in ETW the voice work is more varied and accurate than in MTW2, where the Spanish, Portugese, Milanese, Sicilian and Venetian factions all shared the same actors & accents. I think there was also a minor scandal on these very forums about what the names of Russian characters meant...

    I'm British but I don't half get annoyed with the anglo-centricity of any TW games with Britain/England in them. Either their interest in historical research or their desire for consistency of the game with history are lacking -"domus dulcis domus" as a random Scithii settlement in RTW a case in point.

    And then look at the promotional artwork -why is it always Richard the lionheart or a red-coat? I don't know what percentage of sales are based on UK purchases but they are frankly missing the boat IMHO -or maybe no one really cares?
    I think it's just because They're smaller than France. People gotta compensate, you know?

    The US did it by building missiles. The Germans do it by building armies. The French do it by being snooty bastards.

    The British've got the right idea. They write the history books

    Cossacks -European wars, now THAT had a more balanced approach to unit types for each faction. Shame about the gameplay though...
    Hurk.

    I suddenly have an idea where the ETW crew got their ideas about grenadiers from.

    Cossacks at least had more tangible variety in the units...they didn't just make the Russians worse, they made them cheaper, less accurate, and gave them a morale boost.

    P.s. Sheogarath's rant was most entertaining.
    Less than three
    Last edited by Sheogorath; 03-11-2009 at 16:44.
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

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