My post on the Sweden thread

[PanzerJaeger]

I wish to also add: my grandfather was an Imam when he was alive, and he followed the prophet's sunnah to the letter-everything that was consistent with, and related to the Qur'an (that way he avoided doing the wrong things), as well as the good book itself. and he wasn't exactly "evil and hypocritical", but the very opposite. he never raised voice, attacked anyone, and he treated his wife very very well by all accounts. so where in this does Islam teach doing evil, if all proper applications are the exact opposite? and none of the sahabah exhibited evil tendencies (sternes, yeah, not evil)

this is to show you what kind of person islam is theoretically supposed to make. and so far, all good muslims I have met have been the very oppoite of what you predict, and all are very clear that they follow his example. I have yet to see one person who truly did, and ended up a terrorrist or criminal...


no this is not an appeal to consequence-just citing examples of what proper following of Islam does

wait one second: this was in a thread about Sweden? I see now.... (no I have nothing against Sweden-just what I heard about the immigrents there)

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm relieved. For a minute there, I was sure there were incredible human rights abuses and a dangerous fomentation of terrorism within the islamic world. Silly me.

Are such insightful anecdotes how you won all those 258 debates?

[seireikhaan]

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

A very much uncalled for personal attack.

[LittleGrizzly]

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm relieved. For a minute there, I was sure there were incredible human rights abuses and a dangerous fomentation of terrorism within the islamic world. Silly me.

Well thanks for that example PJ, If i were the kind of person to make generalisations like vuk and pj this is the point where i might generalise off the last 2 responses. We had a muslim make a perfectly sensible argument whilst maintaining the hieght of good conduct... then we have a christian who just opens his mouth and dives straight in there with a personal attack...

If i was the kind of person to make generalisations.... the things i would say...

[Adrian II]

Backroom discussions are getting bland lately, particularly because some very colourful members have left us for one reason or another. The result is a lot of middle of the road discussion instead of sharp debate. Personally I would appreciate a firmer tone as long as racial slurs or personal attacks are left out. With the foxman (temporarily?) absent and Louis dropping only the occasional provocative gem, there is little to get excited about. I blame myself (and a busy stage in my life) as much as the next member. But please, can we have a good old barnfight for once. Sigh.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I don't think this debate really belongs here - I think a thread should be started on the topic of Islam in the Backroom instead. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is entirely for debating Vuk's complaint. You all know my opinion already.

[PanzerJaeger]

A very much uncalled for personal attack.

I'm wondering how simply repeating what he already stated for the purpose of highlighting the weakness of anecdotal substantiation is a personal attack...

Regardless, EMFM is of course right. This isn't the place. You guys should kick this around in the Backroom.

[seireikhaan]

I'm wondering how simply repeating what he already stated for the purpose of highlighting the weakness of anecdotal substantiation is a personal attack...

Don't play dumb, that was an attack on a person's grandfather and you know it.

[PanzerJaeger]

Don't play dumb, that was an attack on a person's grandfather and you know it.

Actually, it was not. It had very little if anything to do with his grandfather at all, and more to do with his use of his grandfather as some sort of anecdotal evidence of muslim behavior - a segway into my broader point. Since I wrote it I know this to be true.

I do appreciate you giving me the opportunity to make clear any misunderstandings though.

also, I usually convinced the others not with anecdotal evidence, but in the manner I talked to Vuk: I cited the records, and used facts from the sources I have at ready. In fact, if you read the poscrit to that post, you would releize that I hade already made my case, and was citing an example of what ideally things should be.

The thing is, dear Ibrahim, you didn't make much of a case at all. I, and I believe most people who have issues with Islam, do not really care what the good prophet did or did not do with little girls or whether your grandfather was a stand up guy or not. We care about the here and now. I'm glad you've acknowledged all is not well in the land of Mohammed. I'm perfectly willing to say the same about Western the Western World.

(to think I am saying that proves you think I am and idiot, and that you are a jacka**)

or should I talk to you like I talk to 1 year olds?

Excellent. Your temper is most delicious indeed, but don’t go and get yourself in trouble over me. It’s really not worth it.

[PershsNhpios]

I suppose that the men pictured inside the armour in your signature would not have bothered wasting time with baiting people as you have Hunter..
What shame that you dishonour them, by wearing them digitally like a badge.

When you click on, "The Guild", and see the rows of Gaming forums, with people shouting about being flogged with mortars and about how the Greeks pronounced their names - you must wonder why it is necessary to have such a nasty dark side to the forum like the Backroom.

People who go in seldom come out, and if you do not go insane for frustration of the vanity that is breathed like poison therein, you are certain to become one of the self-satisfied and properly opinionated group who are completely convinced that they know what needs to be done in order to correct all the problems in this world.


Outback, Australian mine-workers, though more ignorant, are far more sensible and reserved when they are asked of their opinion!
And they have some of the worst manners I have ever witnessed!

Can another forum not be found for this to carry on?

Certainly, one can avoid the backroom, no doubt as one can avoid drugs or a blackhole (And it seems many Backroomers have difficulty avoiding the former..) - but lately it has burst out into lighter places like the Frontroom and quite blemished the atmosphere of the Org.
And I freely admit that I was one of those who brought political mischief out of it's place.

Political differences only ever bring bitterness.
Here on the forum, where no one can reach another's throat, it simply makes for horrible doses of sarcasm and generally brings out the worst in all - even those who have popular and accepted theories.
In reality, where one can reach another's throat, it is still the case that people who have opinions never intend to let them be converted to that of their opponent's.
The arguments are instead solved with violence.

Not because people are terrible, but because if one is committed to force his opinion on another - nowadays the average person feels too informed and content with themselves to be persuaded - scepticism is rife, the man who wishes to force his opinion must in all cases do so by violence for he loses his patience.

Most sadly, orators are disbelieved and mistrusted, and rhetoric is deemed misleading and deceitful for it has too many times been used as a weapon for evil purposes.

---

What place has any of this on a Gaming forum? I realise to myself, that it is unworthy of the lowest dignity to be debating like a serious suiter of one's nation - whilst on a forum for strategy video-games!

Off to the district representatives to you! Off to the parks, and the town halls, where you can make your speeches and perhaps get some fresh air!

[PershsNhpios]

(Perhaps I should leave this alone now - but it is interesting to watch Vuk come back and put little bold comments under my paragraphs!
I can just picture him flapping his hands like a mouth and rolling his eyes if we were all in a room talking!)

God Bless America! Home of the Free! Home of the Most Beautiful and Intelligent people in the Whole Wide World!
Da-da da-da da Daa da DAA da-da - da-da da-da DAA! Daa da-da!

[Strike For The South]

I think PJ is right and ya'll are playing right into his hands.

As for the actual thread. It really is all presentation.

[Ibrahim]

The thing is, dear Ibrahim, you didn't make much of a case at all. I, and I believe most people who have issues with Islam, do not really care what the good prophet did or did not do with little girls or whether your grandfather was a stand up guy or not. We care about the here and now. I'm glad you've acknowledged all is not well in the land of Mohammed. I'm perfectly willing to say the same about Western the Western World.

1-I am well aware that the problem is here and now. but I fear you misunderstood the original intent of my first post. my post was to refute beliefs and misconception about a particular person..hence my objective was to refute a case. this I did. my goal was to rebut what Vuk said about the prophet's person, nothing more or less. I did, and cited the evidence, so I made my case, and made it well. I did not post to discuss to cater to whoever else, but t a specific situation. sorry If I show too much focus.

2-if its about the here and now, why the heck did Vuk (and many others) attack the prophet? I know that the history before today is important, but you can't attack the begining just yet. its not as if Islam jumped the c.1400 years from 610 to 2009. In fact, the period in the middle matters to understand todays situation.

3-If you want my case however about Islam today, let me make it here:

the here and now (since you claim the problem is today): people have taken things out of context, taken advantage of beliefs and practices, and played with them to suite their own ends, or in reaction to the situation round them, and this has led to the mess we are in (this is my case; quite generalized, but I'm not focusing on any one thing, unlike my post to Vuk). the first step in adressing the problem is to point that out(obviously); and what better way of explaining that than citing the prophet? afterall, doesn't everyboby who professes Islam say they are out to emulate him? now you understand why I cite him the most in an argument-because to understand what he did allows one to understand Islam, and by extension, understand what is wrong with its practitioners today. you cannot understand the state of Islam today, unless you understand its origins, just like you cannot understand Europe or America today without understanding their history and beginings. I figured this was simple enough of a start. that is step one: you following? now go up there to my first post, and read that for the origins, and find other links regarding that (wikipedia is actually an excellent source-a rarity in wikipedia). also, you can try to somehow find the blue-green book-it was a good book.(assuming someone somehow moved some from Kuwait to the place you live in).

step two: there are other factors for the current situation, aside from the original religion itself, which I hope you already knew (afterall, aren't they in the news?!): the tumultuous situation in the middle east (the holy Land, Iran, etc), that has flamed fundamentalistic and nationalistic movements; cultural changes in the past 1400 years (again, see the part regarding the traditionalists taking over Islamic thought, and the resulting stagnation, as starters), the way the laws and interpretations were codified and interpreted, etc. not many people look at those to understand what is going on, and tie that into the factors leading to terrorrism and backwardness, and from there to Islam; Instead I see a tendancy of assuming tht this religion has jumped the past 1400 years. also, the rise of movements such as wahhabism, qutbism, and salafi approaches, must be put into context of the original application of this religion, and also in context of their time and place. hence the past is the key to the present in this situation.. I can recomend several articles for your eyes, as explaining the past few centuries (and this century in particular), and hence Islam's problem today, will take me ages:

first off, I only recommend the wikipedia articles as a starter. you are free to follow the links, and look up the citations, and I in fact encourage you to:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.ghandchi.com/iranscope/Anthology/KavehFarrokh/farrokh7.htm (pan Arabism; many will be surprised about its role really in today's world. I know this was against the evil it inflicted on Iran, but its the pre 1980's stuff in it that is of interest)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd-al-Wahhab (wahhabism's founder)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutbism (qutbism; also, i suggest you try to find info on th man who founded it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_...ian_Revolution (I figured you would want to understand Iran's recent predicament, no? I highly recommend that you move out from it and to read that one in detail)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival (islamic revivalism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi (the mahdi concept; again, this figures into some movements today)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_I...osophy#Falsafa (pre 1500 thought)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Nafis (look up his religious beliefs; they will discuss aspects of traditionalist and logical; gives you an idea of pre 1500 conflicts of interpretation)

as you have seen(if you bothered reading), the movements that are endemic to today (and hence the issues today) did not all start in the early 7th century, but later on. also, I have not posted links, but you must take into account the conflict between shia and sunnis, and also the khawarij (Islam's first fundamentalistic sect, late 7th century AD- present (in the form of ibadiyyah; note though that the current strain has been watered down and mellowed); this is critical for Iraq and Iran today. there are also other factors (western* culture going into these lands, the secularist movements in many muslim countries before the 1970's, etc)I ask that you look at the situation recently as a web of intertwined factors, and not as a simple begat model of cause and effect. also, I recommend that you understand the period between 632 (the propht's death), and today, and not focus only on 610-632, and 1970-today.


and as for my temper-I never claimed to have a temper...If you are offended, just know that I am sorry that I have to be you spiegel.

*I refer to the western sciences, the attitudes on various social issues, etc, that do not match what is in the Islamic world; they lead to culture conflict. I personally find western science a good thing. the rest I have only this to say: this is what is done in a different country, hence not good or bad; its just another way of doing things, and another viewpoint...

anyways, I am going to leave now, as this thread has run its course, and in fact should never have happened..so do not reply in any way, as I won't respond. I will let you read through all this info instead, and enjoy thyself. afterall, we all learn stuff everyday, no?

and have a good day.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Moderating the Backroom is always a judgement call, and a constant learning process.

How much is too much?

What comments are meant in jest? Or meant as a sardonic comment? Which are trolling efforts?

We have some few patrons who would truly prefer a forum where they could use **** in every part of speech in the same paragraph.


For moderating, the real point is "HOW" you present it. Is the fact that a phrase was meant in jest clear to any reasonable reader? Is your potentially offensive comment posed as an exemplar to encourage discussion, or a summary with which to damn some position/idea/group you oppose?


Adrian wants a barnfight (we'd say barfight here) -- nothing prevents it. A little care to how you present it and virtually any topic can be brought out for discussion.

[Ibrahim]

Well, we can all move along now. Your grandfather was a good guy, there are no homosexuals in Iran, and women are treated very very well by all accounts.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm relieved. For a minute there, I was sure there were incredible human rights abuses and a dangerous fomentation of terrorism within the islamic world. Silly me.

Are such insightful anecdotes how you won all those 258 debates?

Ad hominum attacks do not constitute clear debate. Anecdotal evidence, while not perfect, can..(consult Lincoln vs. Douglass) there is s diff. Anecdotal, if used correclty, cites examples of a theory or argument; incorrectly, its old wive' tales

look, I am not saying there are no problems in the muslim world (to think I am saying that proves you think I am and idiot, and that you are a jacka**)-just the opposite, there are no shortages in that regrad; the oner/misinterpretation of what is presented to us, the dogmatic grip of the clerics for the past 500 years, the triumph of traditionalist vs. Logical interpretations (which used to be the norm), etc, etc, etc. this is the main idea behind what I am saying.

I do not want to fight with anyone on this, as EMFM and others have said. i merely wish o correct, explain, and make sense of this confusion

PS: do not pin the acts of fanatical shi3a on a sunni. I do not perfectly understand the shi3a, or their interpreation of the law, so Iran sould be mentioned to someone else...

[Ibrahim]

also, I usually convinced the others not with anecdotal evidence, but in the manner I talked to Vuk: I cited the records, and used facts from the sources I have at ready. In fact, if you read the poscrit to that post, you would releize that I hade already made my case, and was citing an example of what ideally things should be.

or should I talk to you like I talk to 1 year olds?

[Ibrahim]

also, I usually convinced the others not with anecdotal evidence, but in the manner I talked to Vuk: I cited the records, and used facts from the sources I have at ready. In fact, if you read the poscrit to that post, you would releize that I hade already made my case, and was citing an example of what ideally things should be.

or should I talk to you like I talk to 1 year olds?

and if you are having trouble finding the postcript, I will quote it here:

this is to show you what kind of person islam is theoretically supposed to make. and so far, all good muslims I have met have been the very oppoite of what you predict, and all are very clear that they follow his example. I have yet to see one person who truly did, and ended up a terrorrist or criminal...

again, If you guys have problems/issues/trouble/touchings: go to the backroom.