Sword/Spear Leathality

[Aper]

@ artavazd : no, its all about the weapon they are actually using

@ antisocialmunky : I don't understand what do you mean (english not my primary language) but technically, AFAWK, the bonus of +4 to attack of the "light_spear" is a bug, because its purpouse was to balance the -4 to attack of the old "spear" attribute, and now that this attribute is gone it has no reason to be kept ; all spearmen should have a +4 to defence instead

In my EDU I've replaced the +4 to attack with the proper +4 to defence; sadly I've done a lot of other changes according to my taste, that alter considerably the gameplay, so I never posted the file in the past: this is a zombie horse that sometimes rise from the grave you know...

Anyway, from my little experience as modder I think: if overall balance is saved, nobody should care, the EB team have more important things to worry about (EBII... and sometimes RL I suppose...)

[Drewski]

I agree with above posters. I've spent all evening looking through the Unit files, and have to agree it should really be classed as a Bug. Take the Ambusher unit (Luso Skirmisher). I was wondering why on earth they were doing so much damage against my Principes in several battles. Well its because they have a higher attack, with better lethality! (2nd weapon, spear) And they are Skirmishers!!

I also realised that all The Phalanx units too have +4 to attack (they are class long_pike AND light_spear), where they shouldn't. It makes some of the higher Phalanx units quite crazy (19 base attack in one case, 19!!!)

So I manually went through the whole Edu (twice to be sure) and took 4 attack away from all Spear units, Pikes included. The units look at lot more sensible now, and swords and axes vs spears seems now balanced. With the base EB 1.2 values, its like every Spear unit starts out with a Silver Chevron in attack

If anyone wants the file with these modifications, just ask and I'll post it, cos it takes hrs to do it yourself manually.

[antisocialmunky]

@Aper: +4 defense and +8 against horses might not make Horses as ridiculous as they are now.

[Aurgelmir]

I agree with above posters. I've spent all evening looking through the Unit files, and have to agree it should really be classed as a Bug. Take the Ambusher unit (Luso Skirmisher). I was wondering why on earth they were doing so much damage against my Principes in several battles. Well its because they have a higher attack, with better lethality! (2nd weapon, spear) And they are Skirmishers!!

I also realised that all The Phalanx units too have +4 to attack (they are class long_pike AND light_spear), where they shouldn't. It makes some of the higher Phalanx units quite crazy (19 base attack in one case, 19!!!)

So I manually went through the whole Edu (twice to be sure) and took 4 attack away from all Spear units, Pikes included. The units look at lot more sensible now, and swords and axes vs spears seems now balanced. With the base EB 1.2 values, its like every Spear unit starts out with a Silver Chevron in attack

If anyone wants the file with these modifications, just ask and I'll post it, cos it takes hrs to do it yourself manually.

Could tou PLS post your EDU?
I started myself..

Yesterday,playing pontus i made an army only using axeman/hillmann/scythian mercs(i really like there looks)

So i had a full-stack axearmy...composed with 4 different units...
In my opninon the best looking army in EB.
Butchering the romani,that part goes well,but then i turned to carthago....there libian spearman pawned me?? i still won,but it took alot of casulties even when i was flanking there side's

I only used to have 2 or 3 units of axe/swordman.Now i used a whole army of them,i came to the conclusion...Never doing such thing again lol Despite how cool they look

[Drewski]

Could tou PLS post your EDU?

A pleasure its here :- export_descr_unit.zip

Btw, to make it work for your current game, you must overwrite the EDU in C:\....\EB\sp game edu backup. If you overwrite The EDU in EB\DATA, the game just reads from the backup, and the changes won't work.

[artavazd]

I have taken 4 off of the attack, but have not added 4 to the defence. In my opinion the units marked with "light_spear" already have a +8 defence against Cavalry (which I think is their primary job as anit-cav units) and if they go against other units marked with the "light_spear" their penalties with cancel eachother out. Only elite spearmen should out do a sword unit, because for all others if the sword unit gets in close, the advantage of the spear is taken away. In many description of sword units it states that historicaly they were the anti-spear (phalanx included) units. Therefore I did not give the units marked "light_spear" +4 defence I only took away 4 from their attack.

[Zett]

Will this change destroy the balance? I don't want a über-Roman/Celtic Empire, because they have the most sword units and would have the biggest profite from this change. And what about the factions that have only spearunits and no phalanx ability (like KH), they will have a huge disatvantage, because the engine can not represent their Hoplitephalanx. Perhaps you should give all Hoplites a +4 defence to reprersent their way of fighting and make their disatvantage smaller.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Aurgelmir]

A pleasure its here :- export_descr_unit.zip

Btw, to make it work for your current game, you must overwrite the EDU in C:\....\EB\sp game edu backup. If you overwrite The EDU in EB\DATA, the game just reads from the backup, and the changes won't work.

thx....

What exactly did you change?
Only the attack,or also the defance stat?

[Drewski]

Will this change destroy the balance? I don't want a über-Roman/Celtic Empire, because they have the most sword units and would have the biggest profite from this change. And what about the factions that have only spearunits and no phalanx ability (like KH), they will have a huge disatvantage, because the engine can not represent their Hoplitephalanx. Perhaps you should give all Hoplites a +4 defence to reprersent their way of fighting and make their disatvantage smaller.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

The Celts mostly have very low Def though, and the Romans have pretty low attacks. Greece should really be using mostly H & A tactics anyways. I've just played 10 hrs straight, and didn't see any noticable change in the "Spear Heavy" nations performance on the Campaign Map. The Celts are actually mostly spear units with a few elite swords, if you look at the units they have. I think maybe, people were finding it (falsely) easy to play Epiros, Greece and Macedon (for example)in the first place....

thx....

What exactly did you change?
Only the attack,or also the defance stat?

Just -4 to attack for all Spear and Pikes. Didn't touch defence at all.

See here for some reasoning.

And no-one has to go with the changes anyway, its purely up to the individual :)

[Aurgelmir]

The Celts mostly have very low Def though, and the Romans have pretty low attacks. Greece should really be using mostly H & A tactics anyways. I've just played 10 hrs straight, and didn't see any noticable change in the "Spear Heavy" nations performance on the Campaign Map. The Celts are actually mostly spear units with a few elite swords, if you look at the units they have. I think maybe, people were finding it (falsely) easy to play Epiros, Greece and Macedon (for example)in the first place....

Just -4 to attack for all Spear and Pikes. Didn't touch defence at all.

See here for some reasoning.

And no-one has to go with the changes anyway, its purely up to the individual :)

Thank you for clearing me up.

Finally my pontus hillmen can start slaughtering....without to much casulties

hm...but now i have to use other troops in my sweboz campaign
no more frigge spam

[Twigvest]

A pleasure its here :- export_descr_unit.zip

Btw, to make it work for your current game, you must overwrite the EDU in C:\....\EB\sp game edu backup. If you overwrite The EDU in EB\DATA, the game just reads from the backup, and the changes won't work.

Link Broken, can someone re-upload this please?

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I've manually lowered light-spears attack value by 4, except for cavalries

[mcantu]

@ artavazd : no, its all about the weapon they are actually using

@ antisocialmunky : I don't understand what do you mean (english not my primary language) but technically, AFAWK, the bonus of +4 to attack of the "light_spear" is a bug, because its purpouse was to balance the -4 to attack of the old "spear" attribute, and now that this attribute is gone it has no reason to be kept ; all spearmen should have a +4 to defence instead

In my EDU I've replaced the +4 to attack with the proper +4 to defence; sadly I've done a lot of other changes according to my taste, that alter considerably the gameplay, so I never posted the file in the past: this is a zombie horse that sometimes rise from the grave you know...

Anyway, from my little experience as modder I think: if overall balance is saved, nobody should care, the EB team have more important things to worry about (EBII... and sometimes RL I suppose...)

i suggest not cancelling out the defense skill penalty by adding +4. that is a proper distinction that it is harder to parry with a spear than with a sword...

[Drewski]

i suggest not cancelling out the defense skill penalty by adding +4. that is a proper distinction that it is harder to parry with a spear than with a sword...

I agree totally. Spears and Pikes even with the "phantom" +4 attack removed, are still quite tough enough. They get a bonus vs Cavalry, and most Elite Spears/Pikes still have higher attack than Elite Sword units (even with 4 attack removed).

[Aper]

i suggest not cancelling out the defense skill penalty by adding +4. that is a proper distinction that it is harder to parry with a spear than with a sword...

... well, I think you have a point.
Anyway, this malus will nicely portrait the vulnerability of phalanxes on the right side.

[antisocialmunky]

I'd still take about 2 off the attack. :-\

[Aper]

I'd still take about 2 off the attack. :-\

...

I'm beginning to worry... I NEVER understand what are you trying to say!!!

this is really odd...