Possible LotR Successor Game discussion thread

[Rowan]

It's funny how peoples perspectives differ. From my viewpoint the start of the game (after the first megas term) was quite fun, interesting and full of conflict. Actually at some point it seemed that it was the Order vs. the rest of Empire with Asteri being neutral.

And speaking of people fighting Igno's rule abuse I have a clear recollection that we did all we could to fight it. And in the end that didn't end well at all.

I think the biggest problem at the start of the game was that, lacking any external narrative, the Basileus was very powerful and the new houses found it very beneficial to align themselves with him. At least Komnendoukai and Tagamata had such clauses in their charter and the mercenary Tepaki soon saw who could offer them most gain. I can see if you were in this camp it was very huggy-feely everyone's friends but outside of that camp it was entirely another game... I wonder how the other Order members from that time feel.

And while we are designing the rules for the next game and want everyone to be at each others throats all the time I'd like to point everyone to this article, which quite nicely points out that there are two kinds of gamers: competitive and co-operative, builders and destroyers. And ideally a game offers something for both kinds.

[Zim]

Under my character Asteri formed some fairly close ties with the then Caesar Ioannis. Iggy and I talked IC pretty early on. Maybe we can reveal some of those talks after the current game ends...

Little did I know that a. many of the Houses would form on a "loyalist" basis and b. that there would be some minor internal conflict over how close to the Imperial family Asteri should be.

Then when Kosmas backed down from his position as House leader the House snapped back into the in between position it had up until the end. I think deguerra was biding his time for something major to happen before Asteri attempted to intervene in any conflicts, but then the civil wars stalled and there never really was a chance.

Of course, other members of Asteri might have a completely different view of what happened over the game.

It's funny how peoples perspectives differ. From my viewpoint the start of the game (after the first megas term) was quite fun, interesting and full of conflict. Actually at some point it seemed that it was the Order vs. the rest of Empire with Asteri being neutral.

[Cecil XIX]

And while we are designing the rules for the next game and want everyone to be at each others throats all the time I'd like to point everyone to this article, which quite nicely points out that there are two kinds of gamers: competitive and co-operative, builders and destroyers. And ideally a game offers something for both kinds.

I've been thinking about this a great deal (although I just realized I haven't read the article ), because I think it's a very important concept in developing the theoretical framework behind these PBEMs.

I think there are two different types of play styles: Troublemaking and Reactionism. Troublemaking is pursuing your objectives & ideals on your own initiative. It's strategically offensive. Reactionism is defending your objectives and ideals against encroachment. It's strategically defensive.

Of course, any one character is not going to exhibit one of these styles for the entirety of his career. However, looking at some of the major players in LotR there are certain characters (and even players) that had a clear preference.

Troublemakers - Heinrich, Lothar, Fritz, Jan, and Ignoramus.

Reactionaries - Arnold, Matthias, Edmund, econ21.

These are only the examples which I though were most clear. Also, I think that players who have problems with inactivy are Reactionaries by default, or at least appear to be. Notice that there were Troublemakers and Reactionaries on both sides of the Illuminati Conflict. I think this last point is the key to the excellent conflict we found ourselves in in KoTR.

In my personal opinion, Troublemakers are "dread" characters and Reactionaries are "chivalry" characters. Although that would be different then being a "dread" or "chivalry" character in the in-game sense, as we have seen. I know it's odd to call Arnold and Matthias chivalrous, but if you judge them solely by the way they interacted with other other Electors, opposed to Fritz and Jan, I think you'll see where I'm coming from.

In any case, this ties back with what's been said about how important the players are to making a good game. Upon further reflection, I think it's safe to say that there wasn't a single player in KotR who didn't interect with Heinrich in some way. His troublemaking was so momentous that it set the tone for KotR in it's entirety, as has been alluded to by the fact that some Illuminati have mentioned that Heinrich was an inspiration for their desire to eliminate the Kaiser as an institution.

However, that is not to say that reactionaries are not also important. Movers & shakers need dedicated resistance, and in my opinion that can only be provided by Reactionaries. If there's any immediate practical advise to be gained from this, I think it's that at the start of a PBEM we should try to place Troublemakers in position of power where they're most likely to be able to start trouble, and thus get the ball rolling.

[Zim]

Just wanted to let everyone know I'm still around. My wife and I will be moving into a new place the next few days.

I've been waiting for comments after pming a decent chunk of possible rules I'd written out but haven't gotten any yet. I may just post the horrible unedited mess tonight to see if everyone thinks it's going in the right direction.

[mini]

Everyone that wants to play while waiting for the successor for LOTR: you can join Magna Carta II

A PBM set up by Ignoramus, playing England.
We're just kicking it off, so join from the start! :)


You can find it in the throne room.

[_Tristan_]

Just to add my grain of salt about expansion : if we fear it might be too easy (due to the poor and dumb AI) and do not want a re-do of Methodios BG exploits, what prevents us from boosting the AI as was done during the KotR Cataclysm ?

That would provide enough challenge for any players and force the creation of power-blocks with the intent of taking on the AI...

I remember fondly (and with dread as well...) the battles led against the French with their full stacks of gold-chevroned lancers...

[ULC]

That was because the AI we faced wasn't...the best. Supposedly, Lusted's AI for LTC Gold is the best avialable AI combined with how the campiagn was set up. There is also a few submods that add even more refined aspects to make the game an even greater challenge.

[_Tristan_]

That was because the AI we faced wasn't...the best. Supposedly, Lusted's AI for LTC Gold is the best avialable AI combined with how the campiagn was set up. There is also a few submods that add even more refined aspects to make the game an even greater challenge.

Exactly so why not use the console commands and create for the AI what it is not capable of creating for itself, ie stacks not completely made up of cheap troops or siege engines ? That would surely prevent too fast an expansion on the part of the players.

As to player involvement, I think that what differentiates KotR from LotR is that some of the most active and influential players in KotR remained out of the game/ in the background in LotR.

I agree with Tincow that most of what makes the fun of this game is what players make of it and it is where LotR missed something from KotR.
For my part, I was sorry to see PK go as he sure managed to create characters that provided a lot of strife in the Diet/Magnaura. The fact that Tincow, GeneralHankerchief didn't play but remained in their role as GM also cut out a part of the possible mischief. The fact that AussieGiant and Overknight took also unpretentious roles deprived us of some of the debates that raged in KotR.

Those experienced players should have taken the bull by its horn, putting up a standard for the newer players to live up to. The new set of rules would still have allowed players to make their place in the sun...