Is it plausible to depict the Segmentata using armor upgrades?

[Zaknafien]

It depends on the unit, or branch of service. If you belong to a rabble, an undisciplined group of wannabes who just signed up for the benefits, then I would agree with you. But if you join an organization that takes its job seriously, and doesn’t tolerate laziness or sloth, then you’re dead wrong. My experience in the Marine Corps taught me that if squad leaders were not omnipotent, then they were pretty darn close. Of course, you always have that 10%, as we used to say, but those guys were always pulling the shite details, so to speak. I would like to think that the Legionaries constituted the more disciplined classification, but that’s just my opinion, and couldn’t be proven or disproven without traveling back in time.....

i do not buy this at all. the USMC is just like any other infantry outfit. The Rangers are the same. Special forces guys are even worse. People are people no matter where you go. The USMC is full of stupid teenage kids just like the 10th Mountain division and the 3rd Ranger BN. Im not knocking the Marines, Im saying the propaganda of elite units is usually not all its cracked up to be.

[ljperreira]

i do not buy this at all. the USMC is just like any other infantry outfit. The Rangers are the same. Special forces guys are even worse. People are people no matter where you go. The USMC is full of stupid teenage kids just like the 10th Mountain division and the 3rd Ranger BN. Im not knocking the Marines, Im saying the propaganda of elite units is usually not all its cracked up to be.

I dont appreciate being called a liar. I served as an infantryman in the Marine Corps, and I figure the guys I served with are anything but stupid. All you have to do is read a little history of the Corps, and you will see that your offensive words are hollow. I am not a recruiter, so I have no reason to spread propoganda. If you have some facts to share about the Lorica Segmentata, or any other related Roman armor, then share it. But I will have to ask you to abstain from insulting the Marine Corps and the men I served with.

[Zaknafien]

im not denigrating the Corps. Im pointing out the historic truth that propaganda is usually greatly exaggerated or simply outright untrue. Of course the history of the Corps is glorious, it was written by us. Same thing as the history of WWII for example which leaves out all the bad parts. History is subjective, human nature is not. And certainly you do have a reason to spread propaganda, you were a member of a a small group of people, and it is in your intrests to defend them as unique and special. You're not the only veteran here though, by any means. The point of this, is that popular histories are most often incorrect, and anything that most people believe is usually a lie.

[antisocialmunky]

i do not buy this at all. the USMC is just like any other infantry outfit. The Rangers are the same. Special forces guys are even worse. People are people no matter where you go. The USMC is full of stupid teenage kids just like the 10th Mountain division and the 3rd Ranger BN. Im not knocking the Marines, Im saying the propaganda of elite units is usually not all its cracked up to be.

I understand what you're saying... However, for you own sake I'm not sure what your first language is but any point you were trying to make is overshadowed by the tone of your statement. Most United States military personel are not teenagers nor particularly intellegence deficit. According from censuses conducted during this decade: The average age for the Marines is 19. The average age of Army members is 28. The average age for Rangers is 24. The average military member has atleast one child.

Take into account the fact that many of the younger guys are there so they can get an education and you can probably see why some people would see your remarks as incendary and baseless. Especially if it were someone like the child of a 30-year-old man currently on active duty.

[Ludens]

I understand what you're saying... However, for you own sake I'm not sure what your first language is but any point you were trying to make is overshadowed by the tone of your statement. No matter how many times I read it comes over as highly disrespectful. :-\

I second that. It's irrelevant and borderline offensive. Stick to the subject of discussion.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

The topic is complex... I have not answer completerly truth...
But to close this long history of LS, the modders could produce a skin with Legionnaires LS and make it available only for the custom battle.
This is to make pleasure to those who want to see action with the LS.
Why not?

[Ludens]

For the same reason as why LS is not included in the SP campaign?

Don't worry, though. Someone will mod it in soon enough.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I dont appreciate being called a liar. I served as an infantryman in the Marine Corps, and I figure the guys I served with are anything but stupid. All you have to do is read a little history of the Corps, and you will see that your offensive words are hollow. I am not a recruiter, so I have no reason to spread propoganda. If you have some facts to share about the Lorica Segmentata, or any other related Roman armor, then share it. But I will have to ask you to abstain from insulting the Marine Corps and the men I served with.

I resnt your tone, I did not compalin when you denegrated every other infantryman in the world as "lazy" and only out "for the benefits".

Both Zak and I have made the same point, that the soldier will do the bear minimum to stop himself getting killed.. This is not being "lazy" it is conserving evergy, not to mention the oil and flannel used to clean you weapon, whatever you use to waterproof your boots etc.

I have known soldiers who have found ways of doing very little work in the field, some of those tricks are very clever, all save time and energy and none are "lazy" or stupid".

Further, I have known soldiers to spend an extra $200 on a reliable pair of boots (i.e. German) that they know do not need as much TLC as the British pattern.

My arguement, therefore, is that if LS is maintainance heavy, and mail is not, LS is unlikely to be especially popular, particually if it is more expensive. On the other hand, you have effectivel made another point about LS. The armour's high mainainance requirements would keep soldiers occupied in barracks.

[ljperreira]

I resnt your tone, I did not compalin when you denegrated every other infantryman in the world as "lazy" and only out "for the benefits".

My arguement, therefore, is that if LS is maintainance heavy, and mail is not, LS is unlikely to be especially popular, particually if it is more expensive. On the other hand, you have effectivel made another point about LS. The armour's high mainainance requirements would keep soldiers occupied in barracks.

I would ask that you re-read that post. I have not "denigrated every other infantryman in the world", as a matter of fact, I didn’t even specify any soldiers in particular. All I said was that IF you belong to a rabble, and so on, then I would agree. Its up to you to decide if the shoe fits.
Also, my tone was in response to "Zaknafien" specifically targeting me (in effect calling me a propagandist and a liar), the service in which I served, and the men that I served with. Also, I didnt call anyone stupid, those were Zaknafien's words.

As far as how unpopular, or high maintenance, the LS was, or as to the maintenance schedule of the Legionaries (or lack thereof), I will once again ask you to provide proof in the form of sources or references. And no, your own merits regarding education and your connections dont count, unless youve written a book that I can quote. As I’ve said before, if you intend for me to take you seriously, prove your points with evidence!

My only objective on this topic was to point out that the Romans themselves didn’t consider the LS as pure junk. That it was used a bit longer than most believed. And that the LS made a good armor for the time, even though we all know that chain mail won out in the long run (the reasons we can only guess at). I guess what I’m trying to get at is it doesn’t matter what we think about the Segmentata. Our opinions as to whether the Armor is ugly, or useful, or too high maintenance, or easy to maintain, or what not, has no bearing on history. The only opinions that matter concerning the LS is the opinion of the Legionaries and Legion commanders. The length of time the Segmentata was used, the decent amount of archaeological evidence concerning its use, and the artwork of the time specifically showing Legionaries wearing the armor (almost exclusively), leads me to believe that the general outlook on the Lorica Segmentata by the Romans themselves was favorable.....

But, with that said, I will be happy to continue debating this. So my next statement, or argument, is this: The Legionary helmet (i own a reproduction Gallic type C, which I consider one of the most beautiful helmets of its period) is made of the same iron as the LS would have been made from......so, to make a long story short, if its good enough for your head, then why not for your torso, since its less likely to get hit than your head......

[geala]

When Zaknafien called many members of the USMC and other forces "stupid teenagers" that is no insult imho, at least not for the units mentioned. It just points to the fact that most teenagers are "stupid" in some sense (no other way possible) and the teenagers in the USMC are surely no exception. I remember we were also more or less "stupid teenagers" during our service time. BTW when I read too much about elite forces superhuman deeds I always imagine one attack (units and nations are of no importance here) of the *insert certain elite commando force* in Greece on a *x-country* staff which was repelled by the stunned typewriter guys and cleaning personal. I'm still waiting for a movie about it.

But in my opinion this even backs up ljperreiras arguments about LS: if even elite unit personal is lazy and negligent like normal soldiers but both often managed to care for their equipment and did their job with it (and they did and do also now) than surely also the Roman soldiers -elite or not- (who have specialised armour and weapons smiths to their aid) were able to care for their LS, even under sometimes bad light conditions.

So I still think, LS was more or less a successful and protective armour (if though hard to maintain) in a period of a strong and wealthy state without wars which endangers the mere existence of the state.

To the helmet argument: there were/are not exactly the same requirements. You have to be able to move with the body and the more restriction the worse. Movement of the head is different. The head is also only bone and soft armour not nearly as capable to protect compared to hard armour. Beside the weigth it does not really matter wether the helmet is rigid or soft. On the body this matters. Mail does not hinder your movement (except from it's extraordinary weight), a great advantage. Nevertheless a rigid body defence has some great merits, too.

I get the feeling when I try a -crude- overview over armour history that the most professional soldiers, if they could afford and had the choice, more or less tended to go to rigid defences to back up or replace soft defences like mail or scale. This is relatively clear for the medieval period, a time from which we have much better informations than from antiquity. This alone makes me more a supporter of LS.

[Zaknafien]

sometimes we need to set aside our persona biases to properly analyze a problem. I was in no way insulting those who serve in the USMC or any other service, if you choose to be offened I can't stop you. Let's not fool ourselves though, the USMC is not "elite". Nor are the Army Rangers. I don't think we can compare Roman legionaries to modern day citizen soldiers that are used to myriad comforts and slack livng. However, human nature is human nature, and human nature is often slothful. Thats all I was saying. And yes, most military recruits are indeed stupid teenagers. Get over it.

[antisocialmunky]

I'm not personally offended and can understand what you're trying to say but there's a big difference between some and all, between "...full of stupid teenage kids" and "most military recruits are indeed stupid teenagers."

[ljperreira]

To the helmet argument: there were/are not exactly the same requirements. You have to be able to move with the body and the more restriction the worse. Movement of the head is different. The head is also only bone and soft armour not nearly as capable to protect compared to hard armour. Beside the weigth it does not really matter wether the helmet is rigid or soft. On the body this matters. Mail does not hinder your movement (except from it's extraordinary weight), a great advantage. Nevertheless a rigid body defence has some great merits, too.

I agree that the requirements are different. But what I’m talking about is a certain measure of protection from blunt force, as well as cuts and slices. I tend to believe that chain mail cannot protect you from blunt force. Case in point: while a chain mail coif was being worn for protecting the medieval knight's or man at arms' head, he would never wear it alone. A helmet was worn over the coif because though the chain mail can help protect against cuts and such, its worthless vs. a club or something similar. The problem is the same as the solution, meaning that while chain mail provides good flexibility, it cannot fully stop the force of a solid blow. So, while your back in unpierced, your ribs are still broken . The LS isn’t really that restrictive, concerning flexibility, as much as you may believe. While Medieval armor plates are usually riveted to each other using sliding rivets or what not, the plates of the LS are connected underneath via leather straps, making the shoulder guard very flexible. Most of your full range of motion is available to you. The torso plates end just above your natural waist (a circumference at the level of your belly button), so movement bending forward and backward is easy and unrestricted. Forward and backward as well as up and down movement of the arms is also easy, due to the flexible shoulder guards. Crossing your arms in front of you is possible due to the breast plates overlapping, causing them to slide over each other as you extend your arms. My brother, who likes to portray a Portuguese medieval knight at renaissance fairs, owns a short sleeve chain mail shirt for that purpose. I’ve tried it on, and I'll have to say its not all that comfortable. The armor is dead weight on your shoulders, even after you blouse the shirt at your waist with a belt, as your supposed to. When we go to events together, he usually has to take the mail off after wearing it for a few hours, but I can wear my Segmentata for the whole event, without half the problems. I’m not saying its overly comfortable, but its bearable. But my experience is with the Kalkriese and Corbridge types of LS, not the Newstead (I haven’t made one....yet). The Newstead looks like it would be a little more restrictive.

[satalexton]

I've got a question for you. You are aware that the EB team will NOT include LS in any form/way in EBII, quoi?

[geala]

I agree that the requirements are different. But what I’m talking about is a certain measure of protection from blunt force, as well as cuts and slices. ...

I concur. It could be added that the medieval mail coif was surely heavily padded underneath. Plus a padded cap over the coif and under the helmet. Without padding on all the sides a stroke to the throat/neck would have been devastating wether a mail coif was worn or not. Heavy padding decreases of course some advantages of mail considerably.

The LS discussion has not the purpose to force the EB team to invent it. That was made clear in this thread very early. BTW you cannot at all force the EB team. But even if the discussion is not related directly to the game it is an interesting historical question with sometimes new informations for the participants. The performance of armour also in other periods of history can be better judged the more informations are at your hand. I find it useful.