light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

[Woreczko]

That's interesting. Hypaspistai have sword as primary weapon and spear as secondary, Thorakitai Hoplitai have spear as primary and sword as secondary. And still they beat up Hypaspistai? Would be nice if someone could make some costume battle tests with Hypaspistai and Thorakitai Hoplitai.

That`s because non-phalanx infantry units with 2 melee weapons tend to switch to secondary arm durin melee. Thus hypaspistai were fighting mostly with spears and Thorakitai with ap swords. No wonder, that Th. hoplitai won. The above mechanics makes all sword@spear infantry (mainly elites) much weaker than it should be. They receive cavalry charges with swords, and melee other infantry with spears - exact opposite of what they should have been doing.

Spear as primary and sword as secondary works pretty well for the very same reasons.

[Zett]

Spear as primary and sword as secondary works pretty well for the very same reasons.

I think so too. Same goes for Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Indogreek Hoplites. How you already said, if a soldier is stoken down but not killed, he stands up and switch to secondary weapon. As human player you have to order the unit to attack again and again only to maintain the swordfight. Thorakitai Hoplitai are easier to use, if they are in melee with an infantery unit, only klick alt attack one time and they will fight with swords until you order something else.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Aper]

I think so too. Same goes for Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Indogreek Hoplites. How you already said, if a soldier is stoken down but not killed, he stands up and switch to secondary weapon. As human player you have to order the unit to attack again and again only to maintain the swordfight. Thorakitai Hoplitai are easier to use, if they are in melee with an infantery unit, only klick alt attack one time and they will fight with swords until you order something else.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

A very long time ago I asked for help trying to switch spear as primary and sword as secondary for those elites: sadly people answered that the only way to do this is to change the model of the unit with 3D Max or similar...

There are two possible solutions:
1) change EB units with similar units of other mods that have spear as primary and sword as secondary
2) remove the spear

I use the second option and I'm quite satisfied: they suffer charges but in melee they perform better than before.

BTW, have you considered the idea of linking the reduction to soldier's radius to morale, giving a lesser bonus to levies and a greater one to elites?
I'm using this system with success in the development of Paeninsula Italica mod...

[Woreczko]

Yep, you need 3dmax to switch weapons. Unless you don`t care about the visuals - unit stats themselves can be easily swapped.

Personally I did, what you did - removed spears from said units. While celtic and germanic elites are ok that way, I feel hypaspistai-like infantry should be rather like classical hoplites, than swordsmen...oh, well.

Regarding spear units - I divided them into overhand, hoplite-like ones and underhand, anti-cavalry spearmen.
- First type has -4 attack, no light_spear attribute (no longer anti-cav) and 0.3 radius (except units, who naturally operate in loose formation, like ekdromoi)
- Second type has -4 attack. These are usually low-grade spear units (who aren`t expected to be good vs other infantry) or higher quality spear&sword infantry (who got swords for meleeing other inf.).
- All spears get lethality of 0.18

I changed a lot of lethality and attack values as well as distribution of "ap" attribute and numerous other things... so don`t expect above modifications to work flawlessly in vanilla EB. I thought of releasing a whole mod out of this, but i`m not sure yet.

[mcantu]

why change lethality values at all?

[Woreczko]

That`s a long story. As I said - I modified a lot of things, so 0.18 lethality of spears fits my version of EB well. Generally the outline is like this:
- spears have low to medium attack and 0.18 lethality. Overhand get a "density bonus", underhand are good vs. cavalry
- shortswords have medium attack values, low lethality (0.1-0.13) and are armour piercing (unless used by horsemen)
- longswords have high attack values and 0.2 lethality
- axes have low attack values and 0.25 lethality, no longer armour piercing.
- falcata, sica and other fancy sword-like weapons have very high attack values and medium lethality (0.16). No ap.
- 2-handed weapons got even higher lethality, than before, but lose the "ap" attribute.

The reasoning:
It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.

I was also dissatisfied with unnaturaly high attack values of spearmen - so I lowered their attack and gave them higher lethality - spear is surely a deadly weapon. Then I thought - are hoplites indeed an anti-cavalry arm? Sure, they are not. They evolved in theatre dominated by infantry combat, and so are trained and equipped to fight infantry mainly. No reason for "light_spear" attribute. And thus came the division of spear-armed units into "general-purpose" short, overhand spears and anti-cavalry, longer spears, not-so-good vs. other foot soldiers.

[Drewski]

That`s a long story. As I said - I modified a lot of things, so 0.18 lethality of spears fits my version of EB well. Generally the outline is like this:
- spears have low to medium attack and 0.18 lethality. Overhand get a "density bonus", underhand are good vs. cavalry
- shortswords have medium attack values, low lethality (0.1-0.13) and are armour piercing (unless used by horsemen)
- longswords have high attack values and 0.2 lethality
- axes have low attack values and 0.25 lethality, no longer armour piercing.
- falcata, sica and other fancy sword-like weapons have very high attack values and medium lethality (0.16). No ap.
- 2-handed weapons got even higher lethality, than before, but lose the "ap" attribute.

The reasoning:
It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.

I was also dissatisfied with unnaturaly high attack values of spearmen - so I lowered their attack and gave them higher lethality - spear is surely a deadly weapon. Then I thought - are hoplites indeed an anti-cavalry arm? Sure, they are not. They evolved in theatre dominated by infantry combat, and so are trained and equipped to fight infantry mainly. No reason for "light_spear" attribute. And thus came the division of spear-armed units into "general-purpose" short, overhand spears and anti-cavalry, longer spears, not-so-good vs. other foot soldiers.

Sounds very interesting, like the ideas :)

[seienchin]

That`s a long story. As I said - I modified a lot of things, so 0.18 lethality of spears fits my version of EB well. Generally the outline is like this:
- spears have low to medium attack and 0.18 lethality. Overhand get a "density bonus", underhand are good vs. cavalry
- shortswords have medium attack values, low lethality (0.1-0.13) and are armour piercing (unless used by horsemen)
- longswords have high attack values and 0.2 lethality
- axes have low attack values and 0.25 lethality, no longer armour piercing.
- falcata, sica and other fancy sword-like weapons have very high attack values and medium lethality (0.16). No ap.
- 2-handed weapons got even higher lethality, than before, but lose the "ap" attribute.

The reasoning:
It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.
.

Mmh... Maybe it balances the game better, but I disagree to your reasoning.
It is unimportant if you use a huge Axe or a short sword against an enemy wearing no armour, but you get a big advantage against heavily armoured people, if you use a big Axe, sword or somehting. It just has to do with the kinetic energy you get from using a heavy weapon. It is much easier to fight with a short sword, because it is small and light. It would be more logical to give shortsword fighters a high atack skill and no armour pircing and the 2 Hand weapons and maybe longswords the AP skill, low atack skill and high lethality.
If you dont believe me, go to the forest and try to pierce through hard wood with a dagger and then with a giant axe. It simply has more impact on hard materials.

[Aper]

I changed a lot of lethality and attack values as well as distribution of "ap" attribute and numerous other things... I thought of releasing a whole mod out of this, but i`m not sure yet.

It seems like you just read my mind: the same thoughts occupied too much of my time in the last weeks... Maybe we can discuss about this through PMs and release a joint project...

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.

Well, actually until Romans fought Hellenistic kingdoms (vs. Phlilip V in 197 B.C. IIRC), heavily armored enemies were pretty rare, and however the broad point and blade of pre-Imperial Gladii don't suit well in an anti-armor role... I think your approach of raising the lethality of the most effective weapons should be more appropriate for the Gladium than the AP attribute.

It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

I totally agree

[Africanvs]

Well, actually until Romans fought Hellenistic kingdoms (vs. Phlilip V in 197 B.C. IIRC), heavily armored enemies were pretty rare, and however the broad point and blade of pre-Imperial Gladii don't suit well in an anti-armor role... I think your approach of raising the lethality of the most effective weapons should be more appropriate for the Gladium than the AP attribute.

I agree with you here. I think all of his changes make a lot of sense, but the gladius was effective because of the scutum. The Romans would hide behind that shield and thrust the gladius into the neck/face or slash the hamstring, not necessarily stab through armor.

[seienchin]

A very long time ago I asked for help trying to switch spear as primary and sword as secondary for those elites: sadly people answered that the only way to do this is to change the model of the unit with 3D Max or similar......

No... you can make even Roman phalangitai with just the exp descr unit

[Woreczko]

You can switch sword and spear in the EDU, but the unit would still look like using swords, even if these swords have all properties of a spear.

[Aurgelmir]

Yeah why does a unit have probs with the second weapon and others not?
I always asked myself...

[mcantu]

Yeah why does a unit have probs with the second weapon and others not?
I always asked myself...

there are only problems when the unit uses an overhand spear animation

[mcantu]

You can switch sword and spear in the EDU, but the unit would still look like using swords, even if these swords have all properties of a spear.

you have to change the animation used in the DMB

[Aper]

you have to change the animation used in the DMB

I did, but it was not enough: there's a problem of model/skin/dunno...

No... you can make even Roman phalangitai with just the exp descr unit

From Eastern Auxilia, sure; from other units, how? thx
BTW I was speaking about Soldurii/Hypaspistai-like units, and about how to make the spear their primary and the sword their secondary: I don't see how phalangitai entered in the discussion...

there are only problems when the unit uses an overhand spear animation

but WHAT exactly are these problems? It seems that nobody can/want to aswer this question...