Police abuses

[Louis VI the Fat]

Australia, the UK, the USA? Your police brutality is as nothing compared to the depths of depravity consistently reached by the French police.

For those interested, Amnesty International published an utterly damning report yesterday.

The most devastating find is the policy of charging victims of police violence with criminal offences if they dare to file a complain afterwards.

Newspapers are full of stories of people being fined thousands of euros for attacking police battons with their forehead.

Unlawful killings, beatings, racial abuse and excessive use of force by law enforcement officials are prohibited under international law in all circumstances. Yet in France, reports of such human rights violations are rarely investigated effectively and those responsible seldom brought to justice, Amnesty International said in a new report published today.

Amnesty International’s report Public Outrage: police officers above the law in France, condemns the fact that allegations of police ill-treatment, racial abuse and excessive use of force continue while procedures for investigating such allegations are still failing to live up to the standards required by international law. The organization notes the increasing trend for people who are the victims of or witnesses to ill-treatment by law enforcement officials find themselves charged with the criminal offences of insulting or assaulting a police officer (“outrage” and “rebellion”).

The numerous cases that Amnesty International has researched in the course of preparing this report show that although the victims of ill-treatment and other human rights violations include men and women of all age groups, the vast majority of complaints concern French citizens from ethnic minorities or foreign nationals.

[InsaneApache]

I was stopped just outside Metz a couple of years back by Frances finest. A few miles earlier I'd seen a motorbike gendarme on the other carriageway run to his bike and get on his radio when he'd clocked my plates.

Aye, aye I thought, a bit of the non-entente cordial about to descend on moi. Sure enough a few miles further on I spied the flashing blue lights in my rear view mirror. I defy anyone not to glance down at your speedo when you see the coppers coming up fast behind you.

Anyroad, there were four of them on bikes. One came up alongside and stood up on his bike and looked inside the van. A few seconds later another came alongside and flagged me down. By now I had two at the front and the other two were following along the rear. They gesticulated for me to follow them and took me to a layby.

Now in the UK I've been stopped a few times and the first thing you do is get out of your vehicle. Not in France matey boy! As I started to get out all four of them started shouting "Stay where you are!" and reached down to ther holsters. Now you have to understand that we in the UK are just not used to seeing blokes tooled up, never mind coppers. I froze and put my hands back on the wheel, you see I've seen CSI and I know how it works.

To cut a long story short, they searched me and the van on the pretence of a customs check. (yeah right) They asked me if I was carrying anything, I said I was, two bottles of Chianti I'd picked up in Perugia. They were distinctly unimpressed.

After about twenty minutes, during which they also checked my passport on their mobile phone, they let me go, clearly disapointed. I resumed my journey but about ten miles further on I started shaking. I'd never come close to having a gun pulled on me and it was a tad unnerving.

At least they didn't hit me on the back of my head with their handcuffs wrapped aroung thier fist, ala knuckledusters, like the British cops used to do to unruly teenagers back in the 70s. Life's full of little tender mercies.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Last time my bicycle was stolen, I went to the police. I had borrowed a bike to get to the station.

'Good afternoon. My bicycle was stolen earlier today and..'
'I see you arrived here on bicycle. How did you get it?'
'My friend was so kind to lend me hers. Anyway, my bike was stolen where I work, which is at...'
'Where did you get your bike?'
'Huh?'
'Your bike! I am quite sure you stole it. Begone or I'll put you in custody while I check the origin of your bicycle.'

Louis leaves, part confused, part seething with rage.

Cop shouts 'Hah! Glad to see you run with your tail between your legs! Proves I was right, doesn't it!?'


*thank God I am white *

they searched me and the van on the pretence of a customs check.

Pretence indeed. They searched you because you are British. On the scale of suspect foreigners, that is still alright. For a fun time with French coppers, try, say, a Bulgarian license plate. Or put on a bullet-proof vest and disguise yourself as an Arab or a Black.

Welcome to Latinistan, where 'frustrated little men with shiny uniforms', of some sort or another, forever manage to make people's lifes miserable. Oh well, all peoples get the cops they deserve. The UK has unarmed bobbies. The US trigger-happy pigs. France little fascists with flashy uniforms.

[InsaneApache]

Now you mention it they did have uniforms on that looked like a cross between the US 7th Cavalry and the Waffen SS.

Oh I'm fully aware that the reason I was stopped was because I had British number plates. Gotta say their English was excellent, much better than the average bobbies French I'd imagine.

Their faces when they were told that I had Italian wine (and no French) was almost worth the hassle.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Their faces when they were told that I had Italian wine (and no French) was almost worth the hassle.

You know, I'm still very angry about your post. Those bastards are a disgrace to France! This is no way to deal with foreigners. They should've shown you what France is really about, and have dragged you out of the car for a right good beating for carrying Italian wine.


More seriously:
You know what they say, the French disrespect the law but love authority. The English respect the law and hate authority.
Germans, I'm afraid, love both. (Law and authority that is, not their western co-continentals)

And in the end, we all get just what we deserve. France, and indeed Latin Europe, gets little fascists with shiny boots, mirroring sunglasses and flashy uniforms. It's the ancient love for the strong man, the macho, whether in politics or on the street corner.
Meanwhile, cars are parked six lines thick in the middle of the street, traffic rules don't mean anything and the last time I've seen somebody wait in line was in science-fiction movies or America.


The British have bobbies with reflecting yellow yerseys. They look more like road workers than policemen to me. At the risk of sounding repetitive, I think Britain has the best law enforcement culture in the world. Together with the Dutch. Possibly Scandinavia as well.

The Germans have, well...after the final bankruptcy of Prussian and other authoritarianist streaks a few decades ago they've been having an alright law enforcerment culture.

Don't know where America or Australia fit in this. (But no, despite their speaking a slightly related language, neither are British)

[Vladimir]

Last time my bicycle was stolen, I went to the police. I had borrowed a bike to get to the station.

'Good afternoon. My bicycle was stolen earlier today and..'
'I see you arrived here on bicycle. How did you get it?'
'My friend was so kind to lend me hers. Anyway, my bike was stolen where I work, which is at...'
'Where did you get your bike?'
'Huh?'
'Your bike! I am quite sure you stole it. Begone or I'll put you in custody while I check the origin of your bicycle.'

Louis leaves, part confused, part seething with rage.

Cop shouts 'Hah! Glad to see you run with your tail between your legs! Proves I was right, doesn't it!?'


*thank God I am white *

Pretence indeed. They searched you because you are British. On the scale of suspect foreigners, that is still alright. For a fun time with French coppers, try, say, a Bulgarian license plate. Or put on a bullet-proof vest and disguise yourself as an Arab or a Black.

Welcome to Latinistan, where 'frustrated little men with shiny uniforms', of some sort or another, forever manage to make people's lifes miserable. Oh well, all peoples get the cops they deserve. The UK has unarmed bobbies. The US trigger-happy pigs. France little fascists with flashy uniforms.

Wait a minute: "hers"? Either that would prove your point or subject you to more mockery.

Assuming, of course, that French bikes are gender-oriented like U.S. bikes. Or maybe you people all ride girl bikes.

Regarding your last paragraph: Read my sig. Do French fascists dress better? (j/k, of course)

[Husar]

Man Louis, that sounds really bad.

I wish the whole world had cops like we do, okay there was one who called me an idiot because I was a little confused when he bought something from me, but all the others I've come across seemed pretty nice, maybe it's because many of them have hot female colleagues? That might be relaxing.

Also Louis, I would have let him check who the bike belongs to if your friend gave it to you, she would probably tell him that and then he wasted a lot of time and would still have to work on your issue. But maybe that's just because i never learned to fear the police, rather to respect them and see them as friends, as their motto suggests.

[Hepcat]

In Britain I found the police approachable and nice enough. Though in France they often looked really pissed off and so I tended to avoid them. And despite this they stopped me for no reason (or at least none I could really think of except maybe they thought I was on drugs/carrying drugs which is crazy).

I had gone for a walk around Provins, and then was walking back into the town (I'd ended up outside it) when suddenly this police car pulled into the Railway station car park in front of me, two police get out and demand my ID. So I told them in French that I don't have my id because I just went for a walk around the town so I left my passport at my friend's place and that I was from NZ. At first they seemed skeptical for some reason, but I remembered I had my NZ YHA membership card in my wallet so I showed them that and suddenly they changed their attitudes completely and asked me a bit about how I was finding Provins and whether I was cold or not. I suppose they must have thought I was on drugs because there was snow on the ground, it was a freezing day and I was walking around with a thin sweater on and thin trousers seemingly unaffected (I was too lazy and cheap to buy winter clothes so I just toughed it out with my summer gear). And I guess I also do look a bit stoned when wandering around listening to my ipod. But the whole incident give me quite a fright. Just the way they drove the car in front of me, got out and asked me for id in a very aggressive way.

At least my French was good enough to talk with them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Good to see you, Hepcat!

(At least, I think you've been away. I haven't been as active recently as in times past)

Man Louis, that sounds really bad.

He was just making it perfectly clear that he was in a position to make my life more miserable than I could make his. If I require him to do twenty minutes of work, he'll show me he's got all night to prevent me from doing that. My insolence of undermining the authority of a uniformed man by parting him from his coffee for twenty minutes could not go unchallenged.

I didn't need a police report for insurance, and I wasn't under any illusion (anymore) that the police would make any effort whatsoever to retrieve a bicycle or catch a thief. So what do you do? Waste three days of fighting bureaucracy just to be able to fill in a useless form that will find its way to the bottom of a drawer before you've even left the police station?

Wait a minute: "hers"? Either that would prove your point or subject you to more mockery.

Assuming, of course, that French bikes are gender-oriented like U.S. bikes. Or maybe you people all ride girl bikes.

The bastard wasn't interested in my bike. He was interested in his coffee and his authority.

We do have male and female bikes. Most women just ride male bikes though. My last bike was the same colour as my profile page. Which you American brutes would probably deem 'girlish'. Me, I'd deem it all-pervasing personal style.

[Strike For The South]

We do have male and female bikes. Most women just ride male bikes though. My last bike was the same colour as my profile page. Which you American brutes would probably deem 'girlish'. Me, I'd deem it all-pervasing personal style.

1. Since when did bikes have genders?
2. You're talking to a man with size 14 purple crocs. I have STYLE

[Samurai Waki]

I've never once had a problem with the Police in the US, yet for some reason whenever I've gone north into Canada the Mounties sure have a hard-on for making sure I'm not doing anything illegal. I always thought they were supposed to be gentlemen, but it could just be the fact that the folks up in Calgary and Edmonton don't like Americans much, though I've never gotten that impression from most of the people I've known up there.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Australia, the UK, the USA? Your police brutality is as nothing compared to the depths of depravity consistently reached by the French police.

The jackbooted little asses may be terrible in terms of trying to avoid work, but I'm not seeing anything that much worse in terms of brutality.

Some recent news:
In Philly, a white cop uses racial slurs and describes blacks as 'animals' to a journalism student on a ride-a-long. Imagine what he says to other cops.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Student's article leads to desk duty for officer

A Philadelphia police officer has been put on desk duty after he was quoted spouting his disgust for the black residents in the community he patrolled.
...
At one point during a three-hour, midday patrol-car ride together in January, Thrasher reportedly pointed out recent homicide scenes, three of which involved multiple gunshots.

"People in this neighborhood don't care about each other," Thrasher was quoted as saying. "They'll shoot each other for drugs, for money, for bulls-. All they care about is their reputation. They want to look tough."

After Thrasher responded to a call about an argument, he reportedly dismissed the incident to his lieutenant as "TNS. Typical n- s-."

At another scene, where a man was shot in the back of the head by his daughter's boyfriend, Thrasher said: "These people are . . . disgusting. It's like they're animals."
...
McDonald quoted Thrasher on tensions in the community between police and residents, with Thrasher saying: "People hate us here. They spit at us."

Two cops in Baltimore beat a handcuffed teenager with clubs, and their sergeant helps them cover it up. That was five years ago. Four years ago one cop was actually convicted of second degree criminal assault. He is still on the force, with pay. They've been paying a convicted criminal for four years.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

BALTIMORE — Two Baltimore police officers beat a teenager with a baton and a pool stick while he was handcuffed and shackled, then tried to cover up the attack with their sergeant's help, according to a federal indictment unsealed Wednesday.

Officers Gregory Mussmacher and Guy Gerstel and Sgt. Wayne Thompson face charges of civil rights violations in a six-count indictment.

Gerstel and Thompson have retired. Mussmacher, 34, has been suspended with pay since the April 2004 incident, even though he was convicted in February 2005 of second-degree criminal assault, police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi said.

Mussmacher remained under suspension because city police were cooperating with the FBI, which was investigating the beating, Guglielmi said. But Guglielmi could not explain why Mussmacher was not kicked off the force immediately after his conviction. Mussmacher received a suspended sentence and probation.

The alleged beating victim, Benjamin R. Rowland, filed a federal lawsuit against Mussmacher and Gerstel in 2007, seeking $6 million in damages. The lawsuit was settled out of court.

Rowland is identified only as "B.R." in the indictment.

According to the indictment, Mussmacher hit Rowland in the face with a baton and Gerstel struck him in the back with a pool stick after he was arrested on April 27, 2004. Rowland was 17 years old at the time.

The indictment says Gerstel obstructed justice by lying under oath in a state proceeding about the presence of two other officers when Rowland was arrested. Gerstel is also accused of making false statements to the FBI about his role in the beating.

Thompson and Mussmacher submitted false police reports about Rowland's arrest and how he was injured, according to the indictment.

Before beating Rowland, Mussmacher removed the teen's handcuffs, set aside his badge and gun and offered to fight Rowland, the indictment says. The teen was never charged with a crime as a result of his arrest.

Gerstel faces up to 35 years in prison if convicted of all three charges against him; Mussmacher faces 15 years, and Thompson faces five years.

No attorneys had entered appearances on the officers' behalf Wednesday, and their initial court appearances had not yet been scheduled, said Marcia Murphy, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's office in Baltimore.

Joseph E. Spicer, who represented Mussmacher in the lawsuit, declined to comment. Rowland's attorney in the lawsuit, Robert L. Smith Jr., did not immediately return a message.

In Connecticut, cops get a tip from a woman that a guy was doing cocaine at his house. Naturally, they gather together 21 officers with body armor and machine guns and raid his house. They don't knock on his door, but toss in two grenades designed to disorient and confuse. They then break down his door. One cop thinks he was hit in the foot, though he isn't, and moves forward, bashing the guy with his bulletproof shield.

Let's look at this; two extremely loud grenades go off in your house, which has previously been shot at, you can't hear or see anything. And these well armed men in masks are breaking in and hitting you.

So the guy, according to the cop, grabs hold of the arm of the cop bashing him. Now, the cops have all their guns drawn as they break into this guy's house. They sent 21 officers to practically wage war on this guy.

So the cops all have their guns out and ready to get these two cocaine smokers lying in their house. When one of them grabs the arm of the guy (if he really did at all) the cop starts firing wildly with his gun, killing the guy.

In the Twin Cities, a cop shoots an unarmed teen eight times, killing him. And then he gets a medal for the murder. Especially significant since the cops planted a gun on the kid.

Santa Fe cops beat a man they stopped for walking down the middle of the street, who's father had just died. There's a video; they yell 'stop ******* resisting' as they beat him and slam him onto the ground. Two cops are laying on top of him, punching him in the head and body as he's pinned to the ground, continuing to tell him to stop resisting. Oh, and they pepper spray him while he's on the ground. The cops charge him with assault on police, then resisting arrest. He is acquitted and the city of Santa Fe settles a police abuse lawsuit with $125,000.

Now, you tell me - if two large men have you pinned to the ground and are directly on top of you, hitting you in the head, are you going to lie motionless and not even try to block the blows? Also, the police denied the existence of the video at first.

And then we have stories like this - a laid off man gearing up with body armor and guns to kill policeman. Normally I'd give at least a half hearted condemnation of this, but after all I've read, I don't feel up to it.

Gunmen Kills Three Pittsburgh Police Officers
PITTSBURGH (KDKA/AP) ―

A man opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said.

Of course, while I wouldn't shed many tears for some of the worse scumbags in this thread meeting such an end, those were just random cops who hadn't necessarily done anything wrong.

But then the cynic in me says they likely have done bad things, they supported bad and corrupt cops through their participation in a code of silence, and would likely have violated the rights of other citizens in the future. I suppose the shooter here is someone who's read a little too much Unintended Consequences.

Or maybe the rest of us haven't read it enough.

CR

[KukriKhan]

Poor Crazed Rabbit. This anti-cop crusade has obssessed him. Imagine what it must be like to wake up every morning, determined to find yet another police atrocity to share with us.

Too bad there are so many, he never fails to find new material.

I begin to understand his other obssession: gunpowder-based self-defense.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Poor Crazed Rabbit. This anti-cop crusade has obssessed him. Imagine what it must be like to wake up every morning, determined to find yet another police atrocity to share with us.

Too bad there are so many, he never fails to find new material.

I begin to understand his other obssession: gunpowder-based self-defense.

I'm concerned, not obsessed. And I was supportive of the second amendment far before I realized what so many police were up to.

As I've said, I'm not so much anti-cop as I am anti-police-officers-assaulting-people-and-getting-away-with-it-because-the-system-covers-for-them.

I know I post a goodly amount of stories in this thread. But I don't scour the internet. I go to one single blog, run by one guy, who posts once or twice a day. One post will generally have a round-up of the latest news. And even then I don't run right over here to post it.

I simply don't wake up every morning "determined to find yet another police atrocity to share with" you guys.

Anyway, here's a story of how the Phoenix Police manufactured some crimes against a blogger who was ripping into their cover-ups and other wrongdoings, so they could raid his house and take all his computer equipment and data.

CR

[KukriKhan]

Sorry, old friend. I didn't mean that as a personal critique, just a kind observation. But you're right, in the context of your entire day, finding and posting a couple of police abuse links represents probably a mere 15 minutes. It's just that those contributions have come to dominate this thread/topic, so as a reader I say: "OK. I get it. Police abuse is widespread, and documentable."

Now what are we gonna do about it?

Or is the purpose of this thread to explore the length and depth of law enforcement depravity?

You wrote:

I'm not so much anti-cop as I am anti-police-officers-assaulting-people-and-getting-away-with-it-because-the-system-covers-for-them.

Then what we have is not a police problem, but a courts problem, yes?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Sorry, old friend. I didn't mean that as a personal critique, just a kind observation. But you're right, in the context of your entire day, finding and posting a couple of police abuse links represents probably a mere 15 minutes. It's just that those contributions have come to dominate this thread/topic, so as a reader I say: "OK. I get it. Police abuse is widespread, and documentable."

Quite. But this thread is only one of many I contribute to, and only a fraction of the backroom. Has the point been proved in this thread? Yes, I suppose so. But it's easier to simply maintain this one then open a new one whenever some particularly disgusting incident occurs.

Now what are we gonna do about it?

Or is the purpose of this thread to explore the length and depth of law enforcement depravity?

You wrote:

Then what we have is not a police problem, but a courts problem, yes?

Some of each, but mostly police in this case (there are many problems with unscrupulous prosecutors, but there actions don't contribute to this problem so much). It's the police who cover up for one another, lie and plant guns and intimidate witnesses and make it so no prosecutor can put together a case in the first place. Even the cops who don't directly commit the crimes know what happens and let it happen. As has been side, this 'blue wall of silence' must be shattered.

CR

[Husar]

Well, here's the other extreme.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm concerned, not obsessed.

The world needs more of your concern, not less. Bad enough as it is, being shot at or beaten by a gang of street punks is one thing. By the state is another one altogether. Democracy and liberty is the limitation and accountability of state power, it is the prevention of gangs of armed men from beating and shooting other people.

This is all not a trivial concern.

[Crazed Rabbit]

More on the culture of corruption/blue wall of silence.

In Fresno a Chief is under fire for interfering in internal affairs investigations to protect violent cops.

Wednesday, through a department spokesperson, Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer refused to comment on allegations he's condoned a culture of violence within the force.

Dyer declined to discuss accusations made by a member of his own force, that he had a hand in manipulating the outcome of internal affairs investigations.

But, attorneys pushing a lawsuit against the chief and the department hope to show that Dyer's own misconduct set a tone for the department.

In a February 26th deposition obtained exclusively by KSEE 24 News, Dyer admitted he violated police procedure in the past.

The civil rights lawsuit claims Dyer's misconduct opened the door for other officers to behave outside of policy.

In Hawaii a chief is also under fire - by his own officers, for actually disciplining them:

HONOLULU -- Honolulu Police Department Chief Boise Correa on Monday defended himself against criticism from the police officers' union, which wants him ousted.

He told KITV he is taking his own survey of police brass.

A survey taken by the union and completed by about half the police officers found 87 percent of them want a new chief. That number is up from the survey in 2005, when 78 percent of them wanted a new chief.

They said they felt Correa treats officers unfairly in discipline and other matters.

Correa said disciplining officers is unpopular at times, but necessary to maintain the department's integrity. He said all the data point to success at the top of his department.

"We had a low, the lowest crime rate in 75 years. We had the lowest amount of complaints ever reported to the police commission," Correa said.

Correa told KITV he is asking captains and above for their suggestions to improve the Police Department.

The Honolulu Police Commission must decide whether to reappoint or replace him when his term ends in August.

Some commissioners have told people they are amazed at how passionate the rank-and-file are in their opposition to Correa and they are leaning against reappointing him, sources said.

The Police Commission deciding his fate is made up of Mayor Mufi Hannemann's appointees, who sources said has privately told people he does not support retaining Correa.

Over in Denver a while back, some undercover cops beat the ever-loving **** out of a fifty seven year old man. One of them, undercover, swore at the old man, saying he ran a red light on his bike. The man knocked the baseball cap off of the cop. So naturally, the cops do the standard "three cops pummeling with fists" while they've got him on the ground.

And then, while he's on his stomach, hand behind his back, with three cops on top of him, one of the cops pulls back his head and slams it face first into the pavement. And then they charge him with assault on a police officer, lying in all their reports, and not interviewing any witnesses.

But luckily, the whole thing was videotaped. You can hear the guys' teeth cracking as his face is slammed into the ground. And the cop who slammed the guy's face into the pavement was actually charged with a crime - second degree assault.

The videotape didn't come out until after the victim's trial had began. Because the cops didn't know there was a tape, they lied under oath about what happened.

CR

[Banquo's Ghost]

One thing that intrigues me is that in the US based crime dramas I like to watch, no suspect is ever interrogated with an official tape running - video or audio.

This strikes me as odd, and open to wide abuse - if it's actually what happens. The lack of such protection for suspects may of course, simply be a dramatic device, minimising the disruption of the storyline.

Do police have to record all interviews? If not, why not?

[Husar]

[...]which has previously been shot at[...]

What kind of "civilized" country is that???

Most houses here were last shot at 60 years ago, seems like over there almost every house gets shot at frequently. Maybe that neighborhood needs more policing.