Find me a home (now focusing on biblical Israel & the talmud)

[Hooahguy]

there we go.

[Louis VI the Fat]

A) We have terrorists?

Catholics? Now there's a religion of terror if ever there was one.

You replied the above to Banquo. He is from Ireland. One's thoughts don't need to leave that very isle to find endless acts of Catholic bigotry and terrorism.

Unless of course you put it in context like how its talking about bequests to children , bequests they will recieve on reaching adulthood , at the time when they are able to get married , you know when the female recieves money and the male has to pay money . So the equivalent in Jewish law according to "God" would be the bit about doling out the dosh according to the needs of the recipients.
Still I suppose both are better than the old traditional "christian" primogenture crap where all that matters to scoop the jackpot is that you are the eldest male...like Britain still has with the monarchy

Would that be like the "modesty guard" who beat the hell out of Jewish women in Israel for violating their religious law?

Good to see you Tribes, and a lovely post.

Right, if we are to follow this line of thinking, France and Turkey are the only two european secular countries.

Well, 'states' rather than countries. But they are indeed. Alas, we live on an island of reason surrounded by an ocean of superstition. Superstitions with endless legal priviliges at that.

[Hooahguy]

tribsey, im still waiting for the laws within the 613 laws that descriminate against women.

[Hooahguy]

im still waiting tribes...

[Banquo's Ghost]

There is no need to keep posting such reminders. Tribesman will answer or not as he wishes.

Thank you kindly.

[Tribesman]

im still waiting tribes...

Where to start ?
The role and status of women in society , perhaps thats too hard .
Lets go for something simple .
If a man doesn't like the dinner his wife cooked can he get rid of her ?
If he just fancies screwing someone else can he throw her out ?
If a man beats seven shades of #### out of his wife can she get rid of him ?

Now of course such issues wouldn't matter in a country where personal issues even under a religious code still have to comply with the civil laws which take precendence even if both parties consent to the religious laws....like the UK which someone mentioned earlier .
But can you think of a country where religious laws about personal issues take precendence over any civil laws even when both parties don't consent to those religious interpretations ? (it starts with the letter I ends with the letter L and has 7 letters if you get stuck)

[Strike For The South]

Where to start ?
The role and status of women in society , perhaps thats too hard .
Lets go for something simple .
If a man doesn't like the dinner his wife cooked can he get rid of her ?
If he just fancies screwing someone else can he throw her out ?
If a man beats seven shades of #### out of his wife can she get rid of him ?

Now of course such issues wouldn't matter in a country where personal issues even under a religious code still have to comply with the civil laws which take precendence even if both parties consent to the religious laws....like the UK which someone mentioned earlier .
But can you think of a country where religious laws about personal issues take precendence over any civil laws even when both parties don't consent to those religious interpretations ? (it starts with the letter I ends with the letter L and has 7 letters if you get stuck)

Israel is six letters sweetheart. Entire argument null and void.

[Vladimir]

Israel is six letters sweetheart. Entire argument null and void.

Tribesman in three words: Biden of the Backroom.

[Hooahguy]

Where to start ?
The role and status of women in society , perhaps thats too hard .
Lets go for something simple .

first of all, the role of women in society is completely dependent on the sect of judiasm. in modern orthodoxy as well as conservative and reform judaism, women play a huge role. in fact, my synagogue (modern orthodox), our president is a woman.
ultra-orthodoxy believes that women should be modest in all forms. of course, most non jewish people should regard this as descriminatory, but in ultra-orthodox eyes, it is in the name of modesty.

If a man doesn't like the dinner his wife cooked can he get rid of her

If he just fancies screwing someone else can he throw her out ?

nice lie. he needs to present a god reason to the jewish court.

If a man beats seven shades of #### out of his wife can she get rid of him

yes, she can demand a divorce.

tribesman, your complete ignorance of judaism leads me to conclude you should refrain from posting such accusations. what astounds me is that you cited that the 613 commandments as descriminating agaisnt women, even though there is no evidence.

[Ironside]

yes, she can demand a divorce.

tribesman, your complete ignorance of judaism leads me to conclude you should refrain from posting such accusations. what astounds me is that you cited that the 613 commandments as descriminating agaisnt women, even though there is no evidence.

Could you show me the passage? Deut. 24:1 perhaps?

Laws of Divorce

126 To issue a divorce by means of a "get" document Deut. 24:1

Deuteronomy 24
(New American Standard Bible)
Law of Divorce
1"When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some (A)indecency in her, and (B)he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house,

She might be able to divorse somehow, but it certainly isn't easy to find the passage for that.

Do you know what yibum is?

One personal OT favorite:

Exodus 21

7"(D)If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free (E)as the male slaves do.

[Fragony]

Nice these old texts huh, being allowed to interpret them and all that.

[Hooahguy]

you are forgetting that if you look in the laws of Nashim (book of the Mishnah) it plainly says that the woman can apply to the courts to force the hubby to giver her one. i will try to find it when i get home from NY.

and yes i know what yibum is. it has nothing to do with womens rights, rather to commemorate the name of the deceased father. i fail to see how it deals with womens rights.

EDIT: Ironside, i looked into that Exodus 21 pasage. turns out you are missing a critical part of the Pasuk(sentence).
it reads as follows in the jewish version of the bible. dunno what you non-jews are translating it as.
reads as follows (Ex 21:7-8):
"if a man sells his daughter as a maidservant, she shall not be freed as male servants are. her master should designate her as his bride, and if she is not pleasing to her, he must let her be redeemed."

EDIT II: doing some looking in the commentaries, i found this:
by Rashi, on the "his daughter" part: only a minor girl may be sold.
by the Yad: he may only sell his daughter if he is absolutely destitute and has no other means of support.

[Tribesman]

nice lie. he needs to present a god reason to the jewish court.

So explain this ....Under Jewish law, a man can divorce a woman for any reason or no reason. The Talmud specifically says that a man can divorce a woman because she spoiled his dinner or simply because he finds another woman more attractive, and the woman's consent to the divorce is not required.
or this .....

The position of husband and wife with regard to divorce is not an equal one. According to the Talmud, only the husband can initiate a divorce, and the wife cannot prevent him from divorcing her.

yes, she can demand a divorce.

No physical violence is not grounds for a rabbi to demand a petition from the husband on behalf of the woman unless the woman and man have agreed to that specificly in their contract of marriage

first of all, the role of women in society is completely dependent on the sect of judiasm.

As far as personal disputes and relationships are concerned what is the only real sect in the Jewish State when it comes to legal issues ?

it is in the name of modesty

Thats what they say in Saudi Arabia isn't it .

tribesman, your complete ignorance of judaism leads me to conclude you should refrain from posting such accusations. what astounds me is that you cited that the 613 commandments as descriminating agaisnt women, even though there is no evidence.

Errrr... excuse me Hooah but where are these passages that set out the discrimintory laws against women (that are for modesty honestly)? How are those applied in everyday life under the only real Jewish sect because all the other sects just ain't Jewish

[Pannonian]

There is no need to keep posting such reminders. Tribesman will answer or not as he wishes.

Thank you kindly.

The Backroom has regained its liveliness since Tribes' return. Probably to the moderators' distress, but damn it makes for entertaining reading.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Backroom simply wasn't complete without Tribesy.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Agreed. Our "bogtrotter"* does make for interesting reading.

* Just having fun Tribes, welcome back.

[Ironside]

Nice these old texts huh, being allowed to interpret them and all that.

Yes, that was how this whole issue showed up, as somehow Jews can ignore obsolete part of the Bible or other holy texts, while the muslims cannot according to some.

and yes i know what yibum is. it has nothing to do with womens rights, rather to commemorate the name of the deceased father. i fail to see how it deals with womens rights.

Yibum seems to mean more stuff then, I was thinking of marrying the childless brother's widow. The wife seems to have quite little to say in the matter (except insulting the brother if he's not doing his duty and marries and bangs her to honour his brother). Deut 25: 5-10 I like the 11 and 12 aswell.

EDIT: Ironside, i looked into that Exodus 21 pasage. turns out you are missing a critical part of the Pasuk(sentence).
it reads as follows in the jewish version of the bible. dunno what you non-jews are translating it as.
reads as follows (Ex 21:7-8):
"if a man sells his daughter as a maidservant, she shall not be freed as male servants are. her master should designate her as his bride, and if she is not pleasing to her, he must let her be redeemed."

Interesting about the translations. Appearently "countrymen" (Lev 39-46) cannot be proper slaves but are to be released after 6 years, unless you happen to be female. Proper slaves are from the "temporary residents" or other people. So slave might be too hard, but servant is too weak.

Exodus 22:16-17, won't quote it since your version seems to difffer (care to name it? I switched to the new international version that doesn't use slave in that context). Can you spot the second meaning in 22:17?

I also wonder if there's a male equivalent to numbers 5:11-31 (that sounds possible to rig anyway)?

EDIT II: doing some looking in the commentaries, i found this:
by Rashi, on the "his daughter" part: only a minor girl may be sold.
by the Yad: he may only sell his daughter if he is absolutely destitute and has no other means of support.

So it's ok as it's only selling children to be wives? And not at all discrimatory to women?

And the million dollar question is, does it still apply or is that part considered obsolete nowadays?

I belive Tribesy is refering to Tractate Kethuboth in Talmud.

[Hooahguy]

Errrr... excuse me Hooah but where are these passages that set out the discrimintory laws against women (that are for modesty honestly)? How are those applied in everyday life under the only real Jewish sect because all the other sects just ain't Jewish

so before i set out and crush your other claims, lets start out by asking a question:
earlier you said that the 613 mitzvot descriminated against women. before we go on, id like you to tell me which laws within the 613 mitzvot, which i posted a list earlier in the thread, did that. then we will go on with our debate.

[Tribesman]

70s early 300s late 500s early 600s

[Hooahguy]

are you sure you posted that in the right thread?

[Tribesman]

are you sure you posted that in the right thread?

Certain
Would you like to read them again ? or perhaps you should consult a Rabbi on the meanings first

[Hax]

Well, Tribesman, I've checked the 613 Mitzvot but I could find little concerning the treatment of women, only that a man should not wear female garments and the other way around.

However, I do find them very fascistic and xenophobic to be honest. To name just a few:

#
# Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17
# Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
# Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
# Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people Deut. 25:17

I find this very similar to what Fragony and Hooahguy (among other people) have posted about Islam demanding the death of people.

[Tribesman]

I find this very similar to what Fragony and Hooahguy (among other people) have posted about Islam demanding the death of people.

Thats not fair , you have to put the passages in context

[Hooahguy]

I find this very similar to what Fragony and Hooahguy (among other people) have posted about Islam demanding the death of people.

true, i must admit.
but you are forgetting one thing: judasim does not advocate killing all non-believers. only certain nations that were in disgust of G-d and tried to destroy us, like Amalek.

[KarlXII]

true, i must admit.
but you are forgetting one thing: judasim does not advocate killing all non-believers. only certain nations that were in disgust of G-d and tried to destroy us, like Amalek.

What was Jericho then, where every man woman and child were slaughtered? Ai, where the city was raised to the ground?

[Fragony]

I find this very similar to what Fragony and Hooahguy (among other people) have posted about Islam demanding the death of people.

There is a difference, old testament is full of immoral texts, but (most of) it are old accounts if things that have already taken place, 'god wanted us to do it' 'god was with us' etc. You will find much worse in the Makkabees (sp?). Yet in the Quran it is written down as an timeless obligation, cannot be compared. It's the difference between telling someone what you have done and telling someone what he should do.

[Hax]

Yet in the Quran it is written down as an timeless obligation, cannot be compared.

1. Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17
2. Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
3. Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19

Seems pretty timeless to me, eh.

[Fragony]

[/LIST]
Seems pretty timeless to me, eh.

Yes, but where are the canaanites and all the other by now, it is not our reality. Happened, and it happened a lot. No significance for any of us. But there just happens to be a certain group of people who just can't come to terms with certain things that happened so very very long ago.

[Hax]

Yes, but where are the canaanites and all the other by now, it is not our reality. Happened, and it happened a lot. No significance for any of us. But there just happens to be a certain group of people who just can't come to terms with certain things that happened so very very long ago.

Like the Zionists?

[Fragony]

Like the Zionists?

Of course. Their reality as well, you are dutch you know polderen.