Vermont Legalizes Gay Marriage

[Rhyfelwyr]

How many gays do you know? I know plenty, and they live the same as my straight friends. Eat the same food, watch the same movies, many even dress the same.

You seem to be making homosexuals out into animals rather than people.

I've met a few. I don't think they are animals, I just think their sexual preferences impact more on their personality than, say, their skin colour. To be frank, most of them were the drama queen type. There was one person on work experience who was a genuinely nice guy. But then, he was also, em, flamboyant, which is part of his character.

I didn't say its all bad, but if we're being honest, homosexuals do tend to be different.

homosexuality is an act and often a lifestyle,

Is an act... people go through thier whole lives pertending to have a sexual orientation ?

I don't doubt there are some who choose to be gay.. or who just don't really mind if thier with a man or a woman.. but for some people it is who they are as much as you didn't choose to be hetorsexual...

For all the "OMG Christians say people choose to be gay" comments, there isn't really any convincing proof that it isn't a choice. I also don't buy the 'population control' argument, since it's seeen in all cultures in all times and socioeconomicgeographicblabla situations, and humans must have been in short supply in the old hunter-gatherer days. I didn't choose to be heterosexual because that is the default for any person.

[don't try to tell me homosexuals act just like anyone else.

Don't try to tell me whites act just like anyone else
dont try to tell me blacks act like just anyone else
dont try to tell me asians act like anyone else
dont try to tell me disabled people act like anyone else

All these groups share lots of similaritys but there are characteristics common or more common within the groups... my point people born with little differences act different..

don't try to tell me homosexuals act just like anyone else.

Obviosuly the culture people are brought up in influences how they act, but that's not the same as race itself. People from different cultures do act different because they hold different values, I'm not saying any are superior. If they were brought up in a different culture, they would hold to those values, regardless of their 'race'.

But really, homosexuals do act differently from other people, and its because of their homosexuality. I'm not saying they're evil, but I don't see how this can be denied.

[Lemur]

For all the "OMG Christians say people choose to be gay" comments, there isn't really any convincing proof that it isn't a choice.

Oh really? "Proof" is a bit of a loaded word in the scientific world. There's no definitive "proof" of gravity, but there's a hell of a lot of evidence. So a less guano-filled way of saying that would be "There isn't really any evidence that it isn't a choice." And that statement would be as false as can be.

Fraternal birth order may affect homosexuality

Homosexual study cites hormonal link

What makes people gay?

Relevant quote:

Then, in 1991, a neuroscientist in San Diego named Simon LeVay told the world he had found a key difference between the brains of homosexual and heterosexual men he studied. LeVay showed that a tiny clump of neurons of the anterior hypothalamus - which is believed to control sexual behavior - was, on average, more than twice the size in heterosexual men as in homosexual men. LeVay's findings did not speak directly to the nature-vs.-nurture debate - the clumps could, theoretically, have changed size because of homosexual behavior. But that seemed unlikely, and the study ended up jump-starting the effort to prove a biological basis for homosexuality. [...]

In 1993 came the biggest news: Dean Hamer's discovery of the "gay gene." In fact, Hamer, a Harvard-trained researcher at the National Cancer Institute, hadn't quite put it that boldly or imprecisely. He found that gay brothers shared a specific region of the X chromosome, called Xq28, at a higher rate than gay men shared with their straight brothers. Hamer and others suggested this finding would eventually transform our understanding of sexual orientation.

So on the face of it you are correct, there is no proof. But "proof" is a chimera, a misused word that should not be applied in the practical sciences. There is no "proof" of the particle/wave theory of light. There is no "proof" of thermodynamics. There is only evidence and testing. (You can prove things in mathematics, though, and that's loads of fun for the whole family.)

Let me ask you this: When did you decide to be attracted to women? Say you're thirteen or so, and the hormones are just kicking in. Did you lie there in your Yoda-themed Star Wars sheets and ask yourself, "Do I want to make the beast with two backs or kiss boys where they pee?" Please describe the thought process that led you to "choose" to be attracted to women instead of, say, Thai Ladyboys.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I've met a few. I don't think they are animals, I just think their sexual preferences impact more on their personality than, say, their skin colour. To be frank, most of them were the drama queen type. There was one person on work experience who was a genuinely nice guy. But then, he was also, em, flamboyant, which is part of his character.

I didn't say its all bad, but if we're being honest, homosexuals do tend to be different.

Many gay men are drama queens, I also find that personality to be annoying. But there are personality stereotypes for religious vs atheist, white vs black etc etc, and you know that it isn't inherent in them, so on what basis do you single out gay people?

[Strike For The South]

Let me ask you this: When did you decide to be attracted to women? Say you're thirteen or so, and the hormones are just kicking in. Did you lie there in your Yoda-themed Star Wars sheets and ask yourself, "Do I want to make the beast with two backs or kiss boys where they pee?" Please describe the thought process that led you to "choose" to be attracted to women instead of, say, Thai Ladyboys.

PLAGIARISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hi,

To all those who wish to use Leviticus as an arguement:

What's the conversion from Judaic silver shekals to £ Sterling, just incase I see any of your daughters in a city and want to rape her?

More to the point, instituting "gay marriage" redefines marriage as an institution. While Western marriage may be monogomous, following the Romans, I know of no culture where marriage has not involved one man and one woman. Which is not to say there aren't plenty of places where people (usually men) can marry more than one person.

So, this is really about changing our language, and thereby our culture.

[Samurai Waki]

God, I only have but one prayer to ask of you "please let people read and formulate opinions based on logical books relating to the neurological and social sciences behind homosexuality, and not just the bible."

Amen.

[Lemur]

Another shot across the bow from the crazysphere. Turns out it isn't the gay mafia that's to blame; it's anal sex.

If you take the heterosexual couples who engage in the practice which is sometimes "associated" with male gay marriage, I predict those couples will favor legal gay marriage to an astonishingly high degree. Their marriage is already "affiliated" with that practice, and so the notion of legally married gay men (and the practices which go along with that) does not constitute an extra and unwanted affiliation for their marriage ideal.

So girls, don't let your boys play with your butts, or they may wind up supporting gay marriage. Finally someone's making sense!

[Rhyfelwyr]

What difference does it make if homosexuality is an inevitable result of either a person's genes or upbringing?

Pretend for one moment that I am an employer. If you are an alcoholic, I am not going to employ you even if your father was a drunkard (purely upbringing). If you lack knowledge relevant to the job, I am not going to employ you whether or not its because you are naturally thick (genes) or you simply didn't get an education (upbringing). If you are mentally handicapped (purely genes), I am not going to employ you. If you are homosexual and act like an annoying drama queen, I am not going to employ you whether or not you chose to be homosexual or if it is in fact a result of your upbringing or genes.

Whether or not they can help it, I'm not going to pretend that homosexuals are no different from anyone else. I'll sympathise with their situation to an extent, but really they are not the only ones in life who got dealt a rubbish hand, and they should learn to deal with it like most others do. People with depression didn't choose to be depressed, its caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain - do we therefore demand that they be employed like anyone else even though they'll be useless half the time?

[ajaxfetish]

What difference does it make if homosexuality is an inevitable result of either a person's genes or upbringing?

Pretend for one moment that I am an employer. If you are an alcoholic, I am not going to employ you even if your father was a drunkard (purely upbringing). If you lack knowledge relevant to the job, I am not going to employ you whether or not its because you are naturally thick (genes) or you simply didn't get an education (upbringing). If you are mentally handicapped (purely genes), I am not going to employ you. If you are homosexual and act like an annoying drama queen, I am not going to employ you whether or not you chose to be homosexual or if it is in fact a result of your upbringing or genes.

Okay.

Alcoholic: 1 issue
Lack Knowledge: 1 issue
Homosexual and an Annoying Drama Queen: 2 conflated issues

Would you choose not to hire them because they're homosexual? Or because they're an annoying drama queen? What if they're homosexual but not an annoying drama queen? What if they're heterosexual and an annoying drama queen?

Ajax

[Rhyfelwyr]

Okay.

Alcoholic: 1 issue
Lack Knowledge: 1 issue
Homosexual and an Annoying Drama Queen: 2 conflated issues

Would you choose not to hire them because they're homosexual? Or because they're an annoying drama queen? What if they're homosexual but not an annoying drama queen? What if they're heterosexual and an annoying drama queen?

Ajax

If homosexuality was no more than their sexual orientation, and the homosexual did not act like a drama queen or have the other annoying traits, I would hire them like anyone else (except in my Godly Republic where sodomy is illegal), and hope he changed his ways, though I wouldn't fire him if he didn't (nobody's perfect). If a heterosexual person acted like a drama queen, I wouldn't hire him.

The issue is I think that homosexuals do overwhelmingly act like that, and since I view homosexuality as immoral I think this lack of morality often reflects itself in other areas of their character. So, I think the "2 conflated issues" are insperable, and are always seen to one degree or another. If some people supress their sexuality, I wouldn't be suprised if far more supress the traits to some extent to get along with everyone else.

Who is making that argument? I don't believe I've seen it. For that matter, nobody argued that black people or Asian people or straight people are "no different from anyone else." Bit of a strawman, that, if you'll pardon me for saying so.

I can't think of any two people who are "no different from anyone else."

It's a matter of degree, being homosexual seems to have a big impact upon people's character.

[Lemur]

Whether or not they can help it, I'm not going to pretend that homosexuals are no different from anyone else.

Who is making that argument? I don't believe I've seen it. For that matter, nobody argued that black people or Asian people or straight people are "no different from anyone else." Bit of a strawman, that, if you'll pardon me for saying so.

I can't think of any two people who are "no different from anyone else."

[LittleGrizzly]

For all the "OMG Christians say people choose to be gay" comments, there isn't really any convincing proof that it isn't a choice.

What proof as i have seen lies on the side of it being nature over nurutre but i agree theres nothing concrete either way...

The things that do sway me...

Gay animals... these guys are obviously not in it to look cool

Gays throughout history... despite being looked down on and persecuted with the best of them people were still being gay... these people were either born gay or seriously sadistic...

Friend, in comprehensive school he acted gay all the way through... when i was younger he was my proof that just because people act gay doesn't mean they are gay... towards the end of school he came out....

Now either he had a really long term plan that he was going to be gay or he was just born with it...

Edit: just to calrify though i foun out the other day about another old friend who has come out as gay... i was shocked he had girlfriends ect. and didn't seem at all like he was gay....

I didn't choose to be heterosexual because that is the default for any person.

So are you attracted to members of the opposite sex because its the default or because of chemical reactions that make you attracted to a person ?

Obviosuly the culture people are brought up in influences how they act, but that's not the same as race itself.

My point is that with almost any grouping of people you can find charateristics that are more common in that group of people than the average...

A collection of policemen, a group of ex army vets, some people from highland scotland a group of people born with non working legs...

These people have shared common experience as gays (or disabled or police) they have been eqaully discriminated against or been to eqaully fabolous partys, or buy the same magazines which give them a slight different fashion sense..

Every grouping of people acts slightly different from the norm...

[Meneldil]

I've met a few. I don't think they are animals, I just think their sexual preferences impact more on their personality than, say, their skin colour. To be frank, most of them were the drama queen type. There was one person on work experience who was a genuinely nice guy. But then, he was also, em, flamboyant, which is part of his character.

I didn't say its all bad, but if we're being honest, homosexuals do tend to be different.



For all the "OMG Christians say people choose to be gay" comments, there isn't really any convincing proof that it isn't a choice. I also don't buy the 'population control' argument, since it's seeen in all cultures in all times and socioeconomicgeographicblabla situations, and humans must have been in short supply in the old hunter-gatherer days. I didn't choose to be heterosexual because that is the default for any person.



Obviosuly the culture people are brought up in influences how they act, but that's not the same as race itself. People from different cultures do act different because they hold different values, I'm not saying any are superior. If they were brought up in a different culture, they would hold to those values, regardless of their 'race'.

But really, homosexuals do act differently from other people, and its because of their homosexuality. I'm not saying they're evil, but I don't see how this can be denied.

I'm gonna get edited out and probably receive a warning point for this, but :

"What a bunch of super-utter ridiculous crap".

There, I said it. The simple fact that people can come up with such arguments in the 21th century makes me lose my faith in humanity.

The whole "GAYZ R DIFRENTS, I MET 1 SO I NOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT K?" argument belong to the 1950's.


Edit: And things only gets worse after that. This topic is a nice summary of stupid prejudice, biggotry and generalization.

I think Catholic people should not be allowed to marry because they all behave like intolerant biggots. I won't hire them either, because I don't want intolerant biggots working with me. And they're all into paedophilia, it's well known by now. They're sinful, corrupted and ill and should all be locked up.

[Rhyfelwyr]

"What a bunch of super-utter ridiculous crap".

There, I said it. The simple fact that people can come up with such arguments in the 21th century makes me lose my faith in humanity.

Sorry please don't tell the PC police on me.

The whole "GAYZ R DIFRENTS, I MET 1 SO I NOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT K?" argument belong to the 1950's.

No they are still different nowadays.

Edit: And things only gets worse after that. This topic is a nice summary of stupid prejudice, biggotry and generalization.

Yes, they act just like you and me tralala

I think Catholic people should not be allowed to marry because they all behave like intolerant biggots. I won't hire them either, because I don't want intolerant biggots working with me. And they're all into paedophilia, it's well known by now. They're sinful, corrupted and ill and should all be locked up.

Fine, that's up to you, and so it should be.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I fear that on both sides we have lost the original discussion in a cloud of red mist.

Enough, methinks.