3 Pittsburgh Police Officers Murdered

**Banquo's Ghost** · 04-11-2009, 08:59

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Bollox , guns don't stop the government from doing anything , and if you think your government repects you in any way beyond some empty lip service around election time then you must be dreaming .

I fear that the argument from Americans that gun ownership underpins their right of refusal against government is but a romantic fiction. One indeed, that their governments allow to ensure docility.

Firstly, I can't see the correlation.

The United States citizenry is armed to the teeth, and that country has developed some of the most intrusive, controlling, rights-denying government of recent times and each election, this trend gets worse. I see lots of bellyaching, but little defence of rights on the streets. Heck, they are not even allowed to have unions that aren't controlled by vested interests. (Note: the government doesn't allow, yet somehow that's fine).

On the other hand, Afghanistan is also armed to the teeth and they have their tiny rump of a government absolutely terrified. So terrified in fact, that they invite foreign powers with enormous guns into their country to impose the government will onto the people.

Finally on the spectrum, we have the Somalians who are armed to the teeth and have successfully dispensed with government. Somalia must therefore be a US conservative's wet dream?

Secondly, The United States likes to see itself as a revolutionary country with a restless citizenry resentful of government. But history shows that they are in fact, British. One revolution, which, barely had the dust settled, was consigned to romance and the old order restored under a slightly different set of grace and favour. Jefferson and Cromwell safely retired to resentful oblivion while the vested interests got back to business. The fiction that gun ownership frightens the government is not remotely borne out by a supine citizenry who don't protest corrupt policemen, interfering courts, massive and generational indebtedness, foreign adventures, warrantless wire-taps, and endless political pork and corruption, to name just a few. Where are the citizens on the streets? Opposition to the government seems to comprise less of armed rebellion and more of switching on a radio and listening to a fat man shout.

Only the French understand revolution. They understood that first you have to behead the aristocracy, literally, not figuratively. Having made that statement, the citizens have to go on frightening their government, not with guns, but by being ungovernable.

Liberty is a revolution that happens every day, in every citizen's mind, the moment they sip their coffee.

**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 04-11-2009, 09:12

Finally on the spectrum, we have the Somalians who are armed to the teeth and have successfully dispensed with government. Somalia must therefore be a US conservative's wet dream?

I believe that's false on both counts - I'd like to see some numbers on personal firearm ownership in Somalia, and I would like to point out that between the warlords, clan system, and Islamic courts, Somalia has plenty of government. It's simply not a centralized state.

I fear that the argument from Americans that gun ownership underpins their right of refusal against government is but a romantic fiction. One indeed, that their governments allow to ensure docility.

Probably. I'd like to cling to my fiction as other nations cling to theirs.

**Tribesman** · 04-11-2009, 09:48

I'd like to see some numbers on personal firearm ownership in Somalia

For that you would need a government and some sort of firearms regulation in Somalia so they can compile figures .
But as they don't exist you will just have to go with John R. Boltons description of Mogadishu as probably the most heavily armed city in the world .

Good post Banquo , revolutions just replace on bunch of idiots that won't respect the people with another bunch of idiots who are just the same .
BTW are you doing any of the revolution celebrations tomorrow ?
I will take the kids down to the statue of that English fella in town to watch all the clowns have their little slot one after another in the "we are the revolutionaries" pantomime . With any luck the SF RSF and 32SC muppets might end up having a fight .

**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 04-11-2009, 09:52

For that you would need a government and some sort of firearms regulation in Somalia so they can compile figures .
But as they don't exist you will just have to go with John R. Boltons description of Mogadishu as probably the most heavily armed city in the world .

And if the firearms are owned and controlled by the warlords/clan leaders/courts and not individuals...

But as you say there is no government there (

), we can't actually know what's going on in Somalia.

**Tribesman** · 04-11-2009, 10:26

But as you say there is no government there (), we can't actually know what's going on in Somalia.

Which is why your statement was so silly .
Though of course you can get some information like from the Ethiopian Ugandan AU and UN presence . That John Bolton fella had something to do with the UN didn't he

**KukriKhan** · 04-11-2009, 13:49

I fear that the argument from Americans that gun ownership underpins their right of refusal against government is but a romantic fiction. One indeed, that their governments allow to ensure docility.

I hope you're wrong about that. But I admit, the more I look about for support, or like-minded opposition to my government, the more eyes I see glazed over. So I wonder: when the day comes, will I be alone?

Castro's "successful" revolution seems to have entailed constantly reminding his subjects that America was their enemy, out to get them at every turn; never stop keeping a watchful eye on the evil Yanqui.

To revive our revolution, maybe we should blame everything bad on King George and his successors.

**Banquo's Ghost** · 04-11-2009, 14:08

Originally Posted by KukriKhan

I hope you're wrong about that. But I admit, the more I look about for support, or like-minded opposition to my government, the more eyes I see glazed over. So I wonder: when the day comes, will I be alone?

I wish I was wrong as well, but look at the development of this topic. Lots of US posters angry at blatant misuses of power by gestapo-like policemen, but not even a mention of citizens out on the streets protesting, let alone armed insurrection.

And the efficacy argument seems to be doomed by history as well. The only time I can see where citizens of the United States collectively took up arms against the interference of a government they felt had overstepped its powers, they got stamped into the ground by that government. It took a few years, but they comprehensively lost.

The wonderful thing about the US is of course that which was noted some posts before. Incredible changes in the fabric of society have been effected, but via peaceful marches, protests, and the ballot box. The only guns brought to those parties were carried by the government, and proved ineffective against the will of people prepared to die for their beliefs.