The Curia

[mini]

Qvintvs Aemilivs rose, haven't been present in the Curia for a long time

"Make the world tremble in fear, and the proceed to show mercy to the fallen enemy."

He gazed around the Curia during the silence that followed.

"It's a hard act to follow by anyone. How could one hope to better this act?" He asked from all present senators.
"That's right, it cannot be bettered."

Qvintvs Aemilivs seemed to swell

"The might of Rome has been extended to Sicilia. The great Punic nation of Carthage has been pushed back to their native African lands. Nothing more sure they are planning all sorts of evil deeds for revenge.
But we HAVE pushed them back. We have shown the world we are a force to be reckoned with. The Mare Mediterranea is no longer a soley Punic affair.

We have brought forth the downfall of a man, regarded as the best general the known world has seen since Megas Alexandros. We have taken all the prime lands of his fellow countrymen. The Epeiros are reduced to a few simpering villages in the rugged parts of Greece.
Hellas, is no longer a soley Greek affair." He finished his preroration.


Volume raising he made it seem he addressed every senator privately.

"The world does not tremble in fear, Conscript Fathers, but I assure you it now looks upon us wearily. They are like a pack of foxes who've just discovered there is a wolf present on their territory.

Let us demonstrate how great we truly are, by showing mercy at the Epeiros. Let us show the world we feel mighty enough to let this people it's freedom, our confidence that we will smite it down whenever we feel like it.

We are Rome, and we are mighty! But we fear not a beaten enemy.


A hard act to follow by any nation senators. Think on it..."

He sat down.

[/Bean\]

Caivs Avrelivs Aqvila rises, smiling.

A very nice patriotic speech, Qvintvs Aemilivs Aqvila, but do you by any chance actually second any of these edicts you speak about?

[mini]

"I second edicts 7.1 as it only speaks of peace and nothing more, and edict 7.3. I say nay to 7.2 because that would send a signal to the plebs that we, senators, are not all as perfect as we aught to be. A Signal which must be prevented.

Furthermore I second CA 7.1. I wanted to propose a law to this effect myself, but I'm willing to go along with this proposition.


Think carefully about what I said about the Epeiros question, fellow senators. We should make peace, nothing more. As to the commanders of Legio III, we hsould not give the plebs any incentive to think lesser of us, members of the senate.""

OOC
I'll list my seconding, as it wasn't clearn:
Edict 7.1
Edict 7.3
CA 7.1
RC 7.1

[SwissBarbar]

"Well, they of course know of our shameful defeat. That ship sailed a long time ago. Maybe you forgot that it's the plebs - after all - who were the ones fighting the battle. So they know about us not being perfect. Now it's about to show them, what we do, when one of those who command battles, utterly fail."

[/Bean\]

I do agree, Qvitnvs Aemilivs. All of Roma is up in arms about the defeat. Had it not been for the news of Hamalcar's demise at the hands of the Consul Manivs Clavdivs, we could have had a riot on our hands. Roma's first major defeat since Pyrrhus, they were crying. It took several days for the crowds to calm down. They are among the ones calling for justice, Senators. Would you deny the plebs of Roma the proof that good Roman law upholds it's virtues?

[mini]

Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillus Avrelianvs looked at his adoptive father.


"Well excuse me Caivs Avrelivs. I did not realise there are any Roman laws which forbid incompetence.
Why, they could arrest more than half of the men present in this body here today!

Of course They have heard of the defeat. Yes they are grieving and are protesting in their comitia that something has to bee done. But do you think the plebs realise who is to blame personally? For that fact, who elected them as Generals?
Didn't we decreed them to lead the legions? YES WE DID!
Why, aren't we then atleast partially to blame? Or do we claim we did not know, and therefore made a decision without having full knowledge of their capacities? Wouldn't that classify as incompetence? Maybe we should run for our lives before someone calls the lictors!


We all know the reason why us Senators are the ruling class. The general idea that we are a better man than any common man. We are the Families that threw up so many famous men whom adorn Roma's history.
This is the idea that everyone below the Second Class has of us. We must strive to maintain this image.

If we now openly condemn these 2 fellow senators, we will openly acknowledge to the plebs in full that us senators have our failings and flaws like any other men.
The day we do that gentlemen, our right to rule will be put in doubt. The day that happens, we will be finished.

If you lack the insight to see my words are true, please think about it this way: which elections are they going to win anytime soon? None, which means they will not get to command.
Which provincial governor will ask for their services, be it as a quaestor or a legate? None.
They will be politically isolated for quite a while to come, and that will be a punishment enough."

[SwissBarbar]

"I would certainly agree with you, had they lost the battle like a true Roman should: Facing the enemy. But they did not. They let their soldiers fight uncommanded and did not fulfill the task the Senate of Rome entrusted them with. Loosing a battle is not a crime. Neglecting one's duty is!"

(OOC: It's not about them having lost the battle, it's about them once again haven't said nothing and just left the game, therefore did not take the save and therefore did not command the battle)

[mini]

"Cousin, I understand what this is about. But we can resort to other measures, without showing any weaknesses to the world outside of the Senate. This is which we should resort to. Didn't my words come clear enough as to why we should do this...?"

[SwissBarbar]

"Please mark for the future: If others have not the same opinion as you have, it does not automatically mean that they did not understand what you said. I'm not stupid, cousin."

[mini]

"I did not imply anyone being stupid. I'm just trying to express the gravity of my argument. I can only hope that my reasoning is clear and that is being followed.
I will not see these men tried and condemned if I can prevent it."

[/Bean\]

No one is above the law, Qvintvs Aemilivs. These generals have neglected their duties to Roma, allowed good Roman men to lose their lives, and now fail to stand up to defend themselves. They leave their defence to you. I wonder who you think your friends are, Qvintvs. Because the clouds are dispersing and the picture becomes more clear than ever. I'd advise you to sit down, and let the law take care of these men, before you cause further embarrassment to me, and your family.

Now, I also second R.C. 7.1 and C.A. 7.1.

[The Celtic Viking]

"So you would do exactly what instead, Qvintvs Aemilivs? Send a message to our generals that they don't have to do what we entrusted them to do? That they can stay in Roma drinking wine while their men are dying in the field without a commander - and with no repercussions whatsoever?

They have not done what the senate laid on their shoulders to do, a responsibility that they accepted when they took the command. When they leave their men to fight leaderless, it's their fault entirely, and not ours. The only blame we can take is trusting that they would do their duties, but not following up and punishing those who don't only work to show everyone that you don't have to do what the senate commands of you. It would be foolish in the extreme to let this go just like that, and I have yet to hear any proposal from you as to what should be done here instead."

[SwissBarbar]

"Exactly what I meant too. You have a clear sight upon this matter. Bravo!"

[Iskander 3.1]

And they have not even come here to answer for their failures! They are cowards, indeed.

[Iskander 3.1]

Upon further consideration, I second all edicts, as well as the CA and RC

[mini]

"Dearest Publius Atilius, I intend to do nothing. Yet they will be political nefas for quite a while."

(OOC: they are inactive, true. But we do not know why. With the reforms coming up, ppl have to get elected, or suck up with anyone who got elected, to actually play a meaningful part. If we just agree to politically ignore them for a while, as in not handing them any offices, would be a political suitable punishments in the lights of events and history. if they prove themselves active enough in the future, they have no lawsuits to their name. That's what I'm proposing.)

[navarro951]

Blasio, with a hand on his chin sighs...

"On the issue of what to do with Dux Servivs Longvs, I cannot say. (OOC: He did already lose CPs for the defeat so as far as our rules say he has been "punished" accordingly.) He will live with the defeat for the rest of his time, a decisive loss like no other in nearly three decades. That I believe, for any man, is enough to deal with."


ALSO WILL BE EXTENDING COUNCIL 24 HOURS TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS THOUGHT UP ALL PROPOSALS THEY WISH TO MAKE!

[mini]

Navarro

Does a tribune have to veto now, or after all proposals have been made?

[/Bean\]

I swaer if you veto one of my edicts I am casting you from the family!

[navarro951]

Navarro

Does a tribune have to veto now, or after all proposals have been made?

ooc THIS MY FRIENDS! OOC: YOU CAN VETO WHENEVER YOU CHOOSE. AND YOU MEAN A TRIBUNE PLEBIS NOT ANY TRIBUNE, BY THE WAY THIS IS YOUR SECOND TERM SO WE WILL BE ELECTING A NEW ONE.

[mini]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I swaer if you veto one of my edicts I am casting you from the family!

"I am truly sorry, Caivs Avrelivs. But I will veto any proscetion of our fellow senators for this session. Unless you retract your proposal"

[/Bean\]

You refuse to allow them to be tried by Roman law? This truely are dark times for Roma, when her successful generals are attempted to be confiscated of their command, and those who fail in their command are not punished. And all this by a man's adoptive son, who was taken in and adopted by myself. This is how you repay me?

[mini]

"I have never supported any 'confiscation' of your commands. And you keep going on about Roman Law... Tell me what law those 2 senators have broken, because they haven't broken any. As by the words of worthy Cornelius Blasio: they will suffer the odium of defeat for the rest of their carreers, they will become politically isolated for atleast 6 to 10 years, and the gods only know if they'll ever come back to public life after the current events.

So yes, I think that is punishment alone, and I will not see them in court.


Further more, how conceited are you, father? Thinking that I interpose my veto to thwart you? I interpose my veto for the good of the Senate, my reasonings having explained several arguments ago.
Yet here you dare ask if this is how I repay you? You have adopted me, yes. Does that make me your straw puppet? NO.
I am my own man, I can think for myself and i'm allowed to my own opinions, ideas and ideals.

How conceited to think this is about you, Tgah!"

[SwissBarbar]

You refuse to allow them to be tried by Roman law? This truely are dark times for Roma, when her successful generals are attempted to be confiscated of their command, and those who fail in their command are not punished. And all this by a man's adoptive son, who was taken in and adopted by myself. This is how you repay me?

Don't worry. Had YOU failed, you'd be punished, believe me. If you ever had failed, even when having fought the battle, and not cowardly hid like the two fellows in Sicily, exactly these senatores, who now pledge for mercy, would have shoot you down in flames.

You may veto the edict, Qvintvs Aemilivs. But is it wise to veto against an edict upon which everyone else, besides you, would vote "yea"?

[mini]

"Wise? Perhaps... What I do, is for the better of the Senate, which is what matters to me. And why do you keep badgering about me trying to bring Caivs Avrelivs down? I have never done such a thing and I'm not doing it now.
Why oh why do you keep seeing this veto as something to 'undermine' you, or as 'bringing you down'?

Do you have personal gains with the prosecution of those men? Do you have anything riding on it? Financially? no. Politically? no.
You have no reason whatsoever to feel this veto as a personal attack or vendetta.
My veto is a personal opinion about how I feel thism atter should be handled. And if you are not openminded enough to atleast listen to what I have to say - you have howled at the mere idea ever since I mentioned it - I will push it through by the only weapon I have left: the veto.

Now please, cousin and father, stop bleating about it. There is no single reason to experience this as a personal attack. Will you act like this every time someone has a different opinion? Every time somone looks at an issue differently, he's trying to ruin you?

Very egocentric, if I may say."

[SwissBarbar]

No it's not better for the Senate, when citizens of Rome see, that their brothers be led into certain death, while the Senator is prowling around somewhere else . And I did not say such thing about you. I just said, that if it was Caivs Avrelivs who had failed, none would have shown mercy. And as for being open minded for other opinions: you are the vetoing one, not me

[mini]

"Why do I even bother?

I keep on asking: on what legal point are you going to prosecute them? I still have not seen why we should. Incompetence is unfortunately not forbidden.
I've given several fine speeches as how my veto is supposed to protect the senate. I explained how and why. All I have heard for the other opinion, are howls about the people.
Don't you see that if we prosecute, it will give the plebs a certain power?
What if, in the future, a general loses a battle, not by incompetence but bad luck/outnumbered/ so many reasons one could suffer a defeat except incompetence? You are creating a VERY dangerous precedent here. That general in the future is wide open to prosecution if you go through with this.
I've also commented on the vulnerability of the Senate as the ruling class if this is to go through.

All valid arguments, put in succint way. And yet, a few people keep on badgering and howling how the people want 'justice'... No arguments, no fine words, just howls about the people.

The people want good government, they expect good government from us because they see us as the ruling class. This will all end when we show our flaws. THEY will insist on involving themselves in government, and the power of the senate will shrink while the power of the plebs will rise in their comitia.

So many dangers this precedent creates, yet no one is willing to see it or even contemplate it and moderate his opinion... That is what i call narrow minded."

[SwissBarbar]

Some Senatores here actually do come from the Plebs, maybe you should not insist on giving them no power. Your "fine" speech tells me nothing but that you are not here for the good of Roma and its people, but only for yourself and your rich and "noble" friends.

(OOC: we have Plebs in the Senate. Not all are Patricians)

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

yes, perhaps it would be best if you all shut up..... Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillvs can veto the edict if he wants, that is his right, and if that is what he desires then no amount of sweet words will stop him. I was going to sit back and let this blow over, as the two senators this is about were friends of mine. but I can see that you two have degraded from actual debate to simple arguement. and now you would deem it to insult the "plebs" truly? I myself am a pleb and I do not take kindly on someone saying I am trying to grab for power don't deserve. So I say again. shut up and sit down, both of you. this issue does not deserve the effort.

[mini]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Swiss, there is a huge difference between plebeians and 'the plebs'...

Sure there are plebeians in the senate, don't you think I don't know that??? LOL

Quintus Caecilius Metullus - who stole the gold of Tolosa, was a plebeian family. He was a staunch 'boni' the faction which opposed ANYTHING remotely looking like a popularis thing. He refused to cooperate with a 'new man' and his army went to defeat against the germans.
He was plebeian, but would rather die than to give one morsel of power to the Plebs.

You have to understand that the gross of the senators -be they plebeian or patrician - were very conservative and would try to prevent ANYTHING that took power from the senate and give it to the plebs.
it's not represented in the game, but you have to have a good view on how politics worked.
There was mmore then the senate. There were 3 comitiae in which the people could vote on things. And by people I mean everyone. First class (Senators+ the knights), 2nd class 3rd/4th and the Headcount.

Now to most senators, everything below the 2nd could rot for all they cared. Hell, the Senate and the Order of Knights have been battlign eachother for almost 2 centuries and they're both 1st class.


This trial will diminish the power of the Senate, because it shows to everyone NOT belonging to it, that senators are not all as perfect as they should be (trust me, the image that people had from senators was mostly that they were perfect men, better than the rest of the people)
You also create a legal precedent, and leave any futher general open to prosecution if he suffers a defeat.

Just one of the few reasons why i veto'ed it, as I've tried explaning numerous times.
But i give up on it. i'll quit after this session, but the veto stands.

"And that cousin, is about the biggest nonsense i've heard so far in this hallowed body."