The Curia

[SwissBarbar]

No reason to get nasty, my friends. I only told you my opinion. Neither will I shut up, when someone who is responsible for the death of 6'000 romans is getting away with it, nor do I tell nonsense.

[mini]

"The nonsens was the remark of plebs in the senate, cousin. And I'm not letting them get away with it.."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

DOES ANYONE EVER READ HERE??? HAVE I SAID THEY ARE TO GO UNPUNISHED??????

i'll spell it out once more:
They will not have any political meaning for atleast 2 or 3 sessions. That means: no enriching themselves, so they can afford to bribe in any elections, they will not have any poticial allies, nothing.

They're reduced to spending the next 12 years attending the senate, being unable to do jack sh!t.
That's a qejigeggherighprth punishment for any Roman Republic Senator.

IF they come back, they don't have to RP a character which has prosecution on their names
THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST INCOMPETENCE

And the whole historic reasons about protecting the power of the senate and such, i'll give up on that, you don't understand any of it.

"Maybe if you would shut up, you wouldn't be telling nonsens, cousin"

[SwissBarbar]

"The nonsens was the remark of plebs in the senate, cousin. And I'm not letting them get away with it.."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

DOES ANYONE EVER READ HERE??? HAVE I SAID THEY ARE TO GO UNPUNISHED??????

i'll spell it out once more:
They will not have any political meaning for atleast 2 or 3 sessions. That means: no enriching themselves, so they can afford to bribe in any elections, they will not have any poticial allies, nothing.

They're reduced to spending the next 12 years attending the senate, being unable to do jack sh!t.
That's a qejigeggherighprth punishment for any Roman Republic Senator.

IF they come back, they don't have to RP a character which has prosecution on their names
THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST INCOMPETENCE

And the whole historic reasons about protecting the power of the senate and such, i'll give up on that, you don't understand any of it.

"Maybe if you would shut up, you wouldn't be telling nonsens, cousin"

"Ah, when running out of good good arguments, start insulting the others. Bravo."

[mini]

"Atleast I started out with good arguments, I have yet to hear yours."

[SwissBarbar]

"You should have listened, I won't repeat again what I - and others too - said, since you'd veto the edict anyway, which is your right as Tribvnvs Plebis."

[mini]

"All I've heard, is a Non sequitur about the plebs, cousin. other than that, I have heard no solid arguments nor legal reasoning. Whereas I have put forward several arguments, which have not been refuted. They were simply shoved aside."

[SwissBarbar]

"Which proves again, that you did not listen."

(OOC: you should reread the thread, what a nerve to say I and TCV and others had no arguments. Just because (only) you say they're not true, does not automatically mean that they aren't)

[mini]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What other arguments than: the people want justice, has anyone said?
What legal reasoning is behind this law suit, which law have they broken?


Fact is: they were inactive. But the battle got resolved with their characters PRESENT.
Had the auto resolve reuslted in one or both of them dead, we could hardly say they weren't present.

Which leads to the fact they WERE present in the battle. Ergo the defeat is to be based on incompetence. Which annuls TCV's argument that they didn't fullfill their duty.

Those are the only arguments i've seen. Care to quote me the other arguments and legal reasoning on what base you are prosecute them.

"Then quote me something" (ooc other than what's mentioned in the spoiler)

[SwissBarbar]

You always say, the plebs does not know the details, does not know what happened. Therefore we should not admit a mistake.

But now listen please, listen carefully, for I won't say it again.


The plebs were the ones fighting. They were the ones spilling their blood. T h e y w e r e t h e r e. They know everything, every detail, they even know more than us, for they were at the very front and watched thousands of their brothers die. Of course, if none had survived you were right. But there are survivors. Are they not allowed to write to their families and friends back home? Do the injured ones, the hundreds they are, not go home and are being asked why in fact they are injured? Do they lie and tell that hey cut their arms and legs off themselves?

This is what annuls YOUR argument. The plebs do know. The plebs saw it, felt it, made the experience. We therefore cannot pretend that nothing unimportant happened. And since we cannot pretend that, we must react, or we will seem like weak cowards, or even worse... we would look like we did not know about what happened, and therefore lost track of the important matters that happen in this world.

Can you convince a soldier of your army to go to battle against an enemy who outnumbers us, if he knows that you could get him slaughtered if you want, and you - in their eyes - would get away with it?

You know, what the Plebs really do N O T know, is us "ignoring" the failing senator. They don't understand the ways of politics, they only understand that thousands of their friends, fathers, brothers, cousins, husbands and uncles have died. And they know who is responsible.

Therefore we must o f f i c i a l l y react, o f f i c i a l l y punish, or they won't trust us never again. Never, never, never, never for all our lifetimes.

That's my arguments all at once, all other senatores got it, only you say that you were the only one with true arguments. I really hope you now understand what I'm trying to tell you.

[mini]

"And I care to disagree. A ranker has got no clue of what's going on in a command tent. So they do NOT know what has transpired except for the army being defeated and they certainly do not know who is to blame."


(OOC: again you're looking at this too modern. A ranker soldier has got no clue what is going on. Has been like that until the late middle ages. All a ranker knows, is that he was sent into battle, and lost it. That's as far as his knowledge goes. As I care to disagree on the generals being absent, the rankers have no reason whatsoever to even remotely suspect it's the generals fault.
They fought, they lost, and the only thing they write home is the fact that they lost. They blame the gods, they blame a lot of things, but no one will publically mention then ames of the generals. Waasn't done)

[SwissBarbar]

It's your right to disagree. I only fight for my right to disagree with you without being blamed a die-hard right away.

The ranker knows what's going on on the battlefield. He knows his orders. That's what counts for him. Of course the commander is to blame, since the ranker knows that he himself fought bravely.

(OOC: even in ancient times soldiers were not stupid ;-) )

[mini]

Sigh

They do not.
A ranker gets told to fight. Then he goes into combat. everythign becomes a blur until he sees his comrades being push backed and the line broken and he flees.

He's clueless as to what happened. And he will certainly not know if there was any trouble in the command tent.
Up until marius/Caesar, the chain of command and how orders went from a general to the rankers were foggy and clouded. In pitched battles it was hard to sent orders through. Untim Marius started working with signs etc, things didn't improve much. it fatoms me how they even managed.

But saying that the ranker knows? That's several bridges too far.

[SwissBarbar]

Ok, imagine a bunch of soldiers after battle, thousands died, a shameful defeat, many injured. What do they discuss, the weather? It's only human to blame someone. You don't blame the soldier at your left or right, it's the general's fault. They fought many battles, they actually know how a good commander commands a battle. Now it's different. They know the flank broke. Why? Of course because they were outflanked. How could that happen? The soldier does not know what happened in the commander's tent, but he knows that no anti-outflanking-preparations have been made.

Now the soldiers in the last line see the general flee. Of course this informations goes around. Why do soldiers rout in battle when their generals fall or flee, if they don't get it? Of course they know what happens. I have led soldiers to battle, I have fought in battle myself and I know exactly what a soldier knows and what not.

Actually I'd like you to answer this particular question: why do soldiers, even whole armies rout, when a single general dies or flees, when they - as you say - don't know anything that happens?

[mini]

Ok, imagine a bunch of soldiers after battle, thousands died, a shameful defeat, many injured. What do they discuss, the weather? It's only human to blame someone. You don't blame the soldier at your left or right, it's the general's fault. They fought many battles, they actually know how a good commander commands a battle. Now it's different. They know the flank broke. Why? Of course because they were outflanked. How could that happen? The soldier does not know what happened in the commander's tent, but he knows that no anti-outflanking-preparations have been made.

Now the soldiers in the last line see the general flee. Of course this informations goes around. Why do soldiers rout in battle when their generals fall or flee, if they don't get it? Of course they know what happens. I have led soldiers to battle, I have fought in battle myself and I know exactly what a soldier knows and what not.

Actually I'd like you to answer this particular question: why do soldiers, even whole armies rout, when a single general dies or flees, when they - as you say - don't know anything that happens?

That hasn't happened much in reality, and never as far as I know during the republic. And i'm not saying they don't know a single thing. But they certainly dont know what exactly went wrong.

So what, now a good general can't be flanked and defeated?

So let's say that everytime one of us loses a battle in the future, we should prosecute them, cuz they have lost the battle! And it certainly can't be the soldiers fault!!!

A mere ranker wouldn't see much of what's happening on either flank when he's in the center, or in the other flank and center when he is one the flank itself.
The centurion might keep an eye on things and look out for commands or signals, but it's pretty much all on instinct.

And like i said: this battle was lost due to incompetence. Their avatars were in the battle, they stayed in the battle, so they FOUGHT the battle.


You have been in battles, you have led men. Very fine.
But you do that, using high tech communications. You are all educated modern men. Some may believe in God, but none will be extremely superstitious.

A vast difference from the average roman ranker, who knows nothing more as how to plow his fields and sow his crops. You were lucky if everyone could read&write. Who believes that any adversity might be because someone or somethign upset the gods.

like i've said atleast 10 times: try to imagine the situation in the mind set of someone who lived THEN, instead of looking at the situation in a modern frame.


But fine, have it your way.
I'd say that we will prosecute every single next defeat, but seeing as we're avoiding ingame challenges as much as possible, there won't be much occassions.

[SwissBarbar]

would you please not answer in the point of view of "mini" but in the point of view of Qvintvs?

He does not know about what happnes in the whole Republic. He does not know what caesar and marius did. And he does not know about "modern men"

All he knows, is that he had fought battles (ingame) and that enemies routed when their generals died. That's what he knows and nothing else. This is not the RL-Roman Republic, this is the EB - Roman Republic, where soldiers DO rout when generals die.

Maybe you should chance your point of view, and not me. You always say we should not use the view of a modern man, and in the same draw of breath argue with "during the whole republic" and "caesar" and marius"... man, really...



This matter about the lost battle has nothing, but n o t h i n g , to do with you ingame challenges. Just pointing that out.

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs Atilivs, who had sat quiet for quite some time, stood up and went to the dead middle of the Curia. Standing with a straight back and a stern expression on his face, he waved his hand from left to right and began to speak, almost shouting out the first few words.

"You are senators of Rome! You are not barbarians, you are not stinking Gauls who need blood to be spilled before you can agree! There are much more important things to discuss than this, and yet you choose to linger on such unimportant matters. For the record, Qvintvs Aemilivs has convinced me that we should take no official action against these senators. I care for the plebs more than most here, I would say, but a lost battle is a lost battle. Putting the mob against ourselves will only serve to worsen the damage - and no, they do not know what has happened, or whom to blame. For all they know, it could've been anything. Lets all just agree to politically ignore them* for a while. That way they are punished, and the plebs will not know about it. Problem solved - as it already should've been once the Tribune said he vetoed it. That should've been the end of this boring and lagging argument, but no. Then let this be it instead, for going on about this would be nonsense.

Now for something that is productive..."

Provincia Gallia Cisalpina as defined in CA 7.1 should be given to Pvblivs Atilivs to govern as a provincial governor.

*The players, not the plebs. I just don't recall their names, now.

[SwissBarbar]

okok, since we cannot rolepaly the plebs to be angry let's do that, since it's vetoed anyway.

But I don't like the way of this culture of argumentation by threating of quitting the game, mixing OOC infos about caesar and marius and other views of modern men, and then forbid the other to use the view of modern men himself, weeping about being the only one who changes his mind when someone speaks "eloquently" (my god, most of us are no native speakers!!!) and by that really got one other changing his mind, yay. cool. For me this game is over (no idle threat, but a fact) , because it's just no fun anymore. you may kill of my char, and Caivs Aemilivs too, whom I intended to give a heroic death in the next battle. have fun playing the REAL roman republic in a GAME, with all the aspects that are convinient to mini and without the ones that don't

[Iskander 3.1]

Exomnivs turns to S. C. Scapvla "Sextvs Cornelivs, who are Marivs and Caesar? And what does he mean by an EB Republic?"
"I am as confused as you are. Perhaps they both need a trip to a Medicvs?"

[/Bean\]

Amidst the banter and chat of the Senators, Caivs Avrelivs Cotta Aqvila rises.

Gentlemen, I would like to announce I will be running for the Consul of Finance this year.

[navarro951]

"I will be running for consul of the legions."

The council is now over. Time for legislation proposal has ended and the polls will be open shortly at which point 48 hours time will be allotted for voting or until all votes are cast.

[navarro951]

Notice from the office of the Consul of the Legions...

Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillvs Aqvila has served his term as Tribune Plebis as a fine Roman should. His term is now over and he is to be promoted to the rank of Legate. Congratulations Legatus Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillvus Aqvila.

Other news,
Consul Cornelivs Blasio Aqvila is to have command of the Consular Legio I Roma passed to him from Ex-Consul Manivs Cicero. Ex-Consul Manivs Cicero will now be allowed to choose his province of governing and become a provincial governor in accordance with the newly enacted Aemilian Reforms.

Legio V Italia's command should now be placed under our new Legate Qvintvs Aemilivs Regillvus Aqvila.

[everyone]

Spurius Claudius Cicero receives a message from Manius Claudius and reads it aloud to the Curia.

Good day all,

concerning the notice I have received on a provincial governorship, and as according to our republic's laws, I chose the province of Sicilia to govern. I hope to rebuild the land and make it a great province of the Republic, after the battles on it during the previous few years.

furthermore I wish to raise the issue on what is to happen to Legio I Apulia, it has been decreed previously that Dux Publius Atilius would command it, but in the previous year, the Legio was and is still stationed in Tolosa.

(OOC: it's supposed to be restructured soon, yes? perhaps P.A. Regulus be move_charactered there as allowed by the RC if it passes, and stay there until it is legio I's turn to be restructured; when it has to be marched/shipped back to Rome)

thank you

[navarro951]

Spurius Claudius Cicero receives a message from Manius Claudius and reads it aloud to the Curia.

OOC: Yes, for now though Legio III is first on the list to be restructured as it just took that terrible beating. Then Legio I will, yes.

[Iskander 3.1]

Yes, my men are eagerly awaiting their fates, and S.C. Svlla and I are patiently waiting for our new commander to take charge.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

Sextvs Grimaces indeed....

[The Celtic Viking]

Pvblivs Atilivs stood up.

"Gentlemen, there have been a miscommunication. From how I understood things, I was supposed to take command over Legio I now after this session, and not before it when it served as a provincial legion. So if Legio I has been waiting for my command, then it has done so because words have travelled faulty ways to my ears."

[navarro951]

Pvblivs Atilivs stood up.

"Gentlemen, there have been a miscommunication. From how I understood things, I was supposed to take command over Legio I now after this session, and not before it when it served as a provincial legion. So if Legio I has been waiting for my command, then it has done so because words have travelled faulty ways to my ears."

OOC: from what i know, you are in command bro so take it

[two people]

in the silence the covers the inside of the Curia, Appius Aemilius Lepidus quietly walks in, takes a seat and glances around.....
the silence remains.

[everyone]

after a conversation with Appius Aemilius and Caius Aurelius, Manius Claudius rises from his seat.
"Quaestor Appius Aemilius Lepidus has been assigned as my aid and he shall assist me in governing the town of Messana."
(OOC: he may be moved_charactered there)

[/Bean\]

Consul Caivs Avrelivs Aqvila rises, and speaks to the scattering of Senators present in the Curia these days.

Appivs Aemilivs Lepidvs indeed strikes a good impression into Roma. I believe he will rise quickly through the ranks and become a powerful Republican in the years to come. I shall watch over his career with great interest.