Review of Empire for those who like historical correctness

[anweRU]

...the deck gun being a viable weapon on any target above a fishing boat is unrealistic, if the simulation were realistic a captain would be lucky to see, much less sink an enemy vessel,

Off the main thread topic: Anyone making those arguments doesn't know a thing about WWI and WWII submarine history then. The majority of kills were made with the deck guns, including large cargo ships and tankers.

For documentary evidence, the easiest place to look at for the U-boats is http://www.uboat.net/.

The record holder for any side in any war ever is Kptlt. Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière in WWI, with 195 ships sunk or captured (459.679 tons) and 7 ships damaged (31.810 tons) - almost all with deck guns.

[A Very Super Market]

You're kidding us. In WWI, deck gun kills were commonplace, but deck guns in WWII were nearly useless. U-boots usually did not get to go into position to attack lone vessels, and the amount of deck gun hits would be minimal simply because it could run away. Use against convoys is plain suicide. Moreover, U-boots are dreadful gun platforms, and vulnerable to small-arms fire, so getting into good range means a chance of the pressure hull being ruined, which would be an absolute killer. Obviously, it is you, who does not know a thing about submarine history.

[nafod]

Off the main thread topic: Anyone making those arguments doesn't know a thing about WWI and WWII submarine history then. The majority of kills were made with the deck guns, including large cargo ships and tankers.

For documentary evidence, the easiest place to look at for the U-boats is http://www.uboat.net/.

The record holder for any side in any war ever is Kptlt. Lothar von Arnauld de la Perière in WWI, with 195 ships sunk or captured (459.679 tons) and 7 ships damaged (31.810 tons) - almost all with deck guns.

@anweRU

I'm quite familiar with uboat.net, as my interest in submarine warfare dates back to Silent Service on the IIGS. Also Aces of the Deep and the predecessor to Ubisoft, SSI's Silent Hunter II (I completely missed silent hunter I). My question to you would be did he in fact engage with the deck gun? Or simply finish wounded (or surrendered-a much more common occurence in WWI than WWII) targets off.

The difficulty with naval artillery is not only are you firing at considerable range at a moving target, but also from a moving platform on all three axis. Of course the platform will move less dependent on the seas (but I here the North Sea and the Atlantic around the British Isles tend to be quite choppy) and the size of the vessel.

We would agree a submarine tends to be quite small no? Even the Type IX's and the US fleet boats.

Also thanks for bringing WWI tactics into a discussion about WWII naval warfare.

You're kidding us. In WWI, deck gun kills were commonplace, but deck guns in WWII were nearly useless. U-boots usually did not get to go into position to attack lone vessels, and the amount of deck gun hits would be minimal simply because it could run away. Use against convoys is plain suicide. Moreover, U-boots are dreadful gun platforms, and vulnerable to small-arms fire, so getting into good range means a chance of the pressure hull being ruined, which would be an absolute killer. Obviously, it is you, who does not know a thing about submarine history.

Agreed 100%. With the move to convoys armed warships would simply annihilate any submarine offering resistance through naval artillery. It was simply suicide to enter into a gun duel with a surface vessel with even less then competent crewmanship.

Realize the later models of the German U-Boat Flotilla the VIIC-43 and the all too late XXI did not have deck guns. American vessels continued to use them because as the war progressed more and more of the Japanese surface fleet was destroyed, leading to more unescorted vessels, and of course we loved to bombard junks and fishing boats as William Tecumseh Sherman brought total war back to the modern western world.

I will move that further discussion of submersible vessel warfare be moved to another forum.

[anweRU]

@ nafod: My interest pre-dates any submarine computer game. My father was a submarine skipper, and my home was full of submarine history & memorabilia. I've added many other books to the library myself.

Read "Iron Coffins: A Personal Account of the German U-Boat Battles of World War II" or any other U-Boat captains memoirs yourself. Note that Kapt. Werner was a late addition to the U-Boat fleet. Also Doenitz's memoirs. If you want a pictorial account, Buccheims U-Boat War, he was a journalist/propagandist who went on a patrol with a U-Boat. Read the USN's own WWII submarine warfare history.

The WWI tactics were very much relevant to WWII. The majority of the U-Boat kills were made up to June 1943, almost always on the surface in night convoy battles. In March 1943 two convoys were almost completely obliterated by 20+ U-Boats attacking on the surface. You are forgetting that up until then escorts were sparse, and ASDIC & radar technology were not sufficiently developed. And most of the escorts were the Flower class corvettes, which were probably even worse gun platforms than the U-Boats.

During June 1943 the Allies finally gained superiority, with more frigates (DEs in USN parlance) and destroyers joining the convoy escorts, dedicated H-K groups with jeep carriers for air support, better radio direction finding & finally Enigma decoding. Then the U-Boats gave up their deck guns to hide beneath the surface (including obtaining snorkels, and developing both Walter-engines and massive battery packs for the more advanced U-Boats).

Finally: Consider the number of ships sunk by the U-Boats & USN submarines on individual patrols, and their limited number of (dumb) torpedos. That in itself should convince you that deck guns were a major component of the submarine arsenal in WWI & WWII. Acoustic-homing torpedos were not introduced until 1943, and Germany could afford only a limited amount per submarine.

[nafod]

@ nafod: My interest pre-dates any submarine computer game. My father was a submarine skipper, and my home was full of submarine history & memorabilia. I've added many other books to the library myself.

Read "Iron Coffins: A Personal Account of the German U-Boat Battles of World War II" or any other U-Boat captains memoirs yourself. Note that Kapt. Werner was a late addition to the U-Boat fleet. Also Doenitz's memoirs. If you want a pictorial account, Buccheims U-Boat War, he was a journalist/propagandist who went on a patrol with a U-Boat. Read the USN's own WWII submarine warfare history.

The WWI tactics were very much relevant to WWII. The majority of the U-Boat kills were made up to June 1943, almost always on the surface in night convoy battles. In March 1943 two convoys were almost completely obliterated by 20+ U-Boats attacking on the surface. You are forgetting that up until then escorts were sparse, and ASDIC & radar technology were not sufficiently developed. And most of the escorts were the Flower class corvettes, which were probably even worse gun platforms than the U-Boats.

During June 1943 the Allies finally gained superiority, with more frigates (DEs in USN parlance) and destroyers joining the convoy escorts, dedicated H-K groups with jeep carriers for air support, better radio direction finding & finally Enigma decoding. Then the U-Boats gave up their deck guns to hide beneath the surface (including obtaining snorkels, and developing both Walter-engines and massive battery packs for the more advanced U-Boats).

Finally: Consider the number of ships sunk by the U-Boats & USN submarines on individual patrols, and their limited number of (dumb) torpedos. That in itself should convince you that deck guns were a major component of the submarine arsenal in WWI & WWII. Acoustic-homing torpedos were not introduced until 1943, and Germany could afford only a limited amount per submarine.

@AnweRU

I'm staring at my copy of Iron Coffins right now. I think we'd find our views on this topic to be remarkably similar as opposed to that much different. Nonetheless I'll see you at Subsim:)