Sons of Elissa - An Interactive Punic AAR

[Ghaust the Moor]

Αναξαγορας stands:


" I realize that the majority of you agree that war is the best policy, but unfortunatly, I have to agree with Danel. Do we ourselves not spy on our friends and enemys alike? They are just making sure we haven't grown to powerful for them. When they invade sicily, than I'll understand, but not a spy. I suggest we just strengthen our garrison, now that the spy is gone, so they have false impressions. This not a matter for war, now an assasin, maybe."


He sits.

[the man with no name]

Αναξαγορας stands:


" I realize that the majority of you agree that war is the best policy, but unfortunatly, I have to agree with Danel. Do we ourselves not spy on our friends and enemys alike?
They are just making sure we haven't grown to powerful for them. When they invade sicily, than I'll understand, but not a spy. I suggest we just strengthen our garrison,
now that the spy is gone, so they have false impressions. This not a matter for war, now an assasin, maybe."


He sits.

"Dude the decision is clear, WE GO TO WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tanit]

Mago stands to address the Senate.

"My dear senators, I cannot resist this overwhelming vote. However I would appreciate some restraint in this endeavor."

Mago let suspicious smile slip,

"We will not be the ones to start a war. I will create an army to assault Rhegium, and I will send a message to Annibas to inform the Romans that this assault on Italy is an effort to assist them."

OOC: Stand by for an update tomorrow.

[Vasiliyi]

Akbar Stands to address Mago,

"My my Mago, are you an genious or what? I bow to your conniving ways. This is an excellent plan."

[Tanit]

Fall 542 Years Since Foundation

Taxes have been raised in all outlying provinces to the highest level which is not inconvenient. Taxes remain relatively low in Carthage as raising taxes there is a tactic for emergencies.

The army proceeds to Ippone, no conflict has arisen yet.

The fleet is now in only two divisions, a small fleet in Spain, and the majority of our ships in Carthage under admiral Thero.

The latest announcements on the leading men of Carthage.


Bomilkar is gifted a daughter, Zita, and Gisgo marries the young Protogonia (19).

Constructions finished by the state this season.



Diplomacy news.
A Ceasefire is in effect between the Romans and the Aedui.
Annibas has achieved a ceasefire with Epeiros and Trade rights.


Mago stands to address the Council.

"Dissension will serve us no good. It will be a number of years before we have amassed the forces to pursue a war with Rome, perhaps by then it will be a course we do not desire and we can direct ourselves elsewhere. Until that time, our focus should be to plan, and to defend our borders. We must also decide with whom we will share trade and with whom we will ally ourselves."

"I have personally sent messages to Bomilkar in Adrumeto and Gisgo in Ippone congratulating them on their recent additions to their families. My scribe is quite good at making my letters far more elegant than I can manage on my own."

The Council laughs.

[Vasiliyi]

Akbar stands,

"Tanibal Mago Sicilio, your words are wise indeed.. Although you may be a "bastard" you are clever. I have changed my mind and my Vote is to not go to war just yet. Let us, instead expand into Numidia. Make it our breadbasket. For the Numidians are weak and have no Allies. And it wont ruin relations with anyways if we do."

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Name: Tanibal Mago Sicilio (also known by his enemies as 'The Bastard')
Age: 26
Background: Son of Mago, but illegitimate, by a Sicilian Greek priestess of Aphrodite, so not officially part of the royal family or in line of succession. Worshipper of Greek goddess Aphrodite. Very capable diplomat and merchant. Known and respected by some for wise advice, but despised by others for not being a warrior, or for worshipping a foreign goddess. Politics - generally pro-peace.

<talks to Mago>

"My lord, I know that you, like myself, value peace. The true strength of Kart-Hadast is in peaceful trade, not war. Gold has made our city powerful, rather than force of arms.

The Senate, carried away by bloodlust and folly, has voted for war against the Romani, but they neglected to say WHICH Romani. Nor have they even considered what our objectives should be in this war!

As you are no doubt aware, Rome claims rulership over all Italians. That means, DIPLOMATICALLY speaking, as regards foreign policy, all Italians are in fact Romani. Not just the ones from Roma.

This means that the rulers of Rhegium, being a rogue Romani army of Campanian-Italian ethic origin, are actually Romani, even though they have rebelled against Roma. Even the Messanians, being led by rogue Italian mercenaries who took over the Greek city of Messana, are also technically 'Romani'.

So - we can exploit this. We could attack these rebel 'Romani', satisfy the requirement of the Senate for war against 'the Romani' and yet remain at peace with the 'true' Romani from Roma itself.

If the Senate complains, you can point to their lack of clarity in setting objectives for the war. Since they had no idea themselves of what our strategy should be, they can hardly complain when you decide for them!

War with Roma is coming, but it doesn't need to start yet. Roma is by far the most powerful opponent we will have ever faced, six times more powerful than Syracuse. The Romani defeated the Epirote general Pyhruss, the greatest general of our age, when we failed to do so! While we have failed to even defeat Syracuse. War with Roma is therefore not to be taken lightly. They are relentless!

Victory in war, for Kart-Hadast, comes through gold, not reckless valour. If we see war on the horizon, we should prepare for it through peace. It is through building up our economy that we shall obtain the tremendous wealth required to fund a major war.

We are not yet rich enough to consider a major war with Roma. I estimate such a war will last at least 10 years and cost half a million mnai. Mercenaries and battle fleets are very expensive. We should delay war with Roma until we have such a sum saved in our treasury.

We should consolidate Sicily before seriously considering invading Italy proper. Rhegium is the gateway to Sicily, so we can take that as part of a Sicilian campaign. We need to take Messana as well, otherwise Rhegium will be isolated. And then Syracuse itself. Only then will we have a secure base for a major war with Roma.

We should also make sure Africa is secure from Numidian raiders. We should expand westwards along the north African coastline, taking the Numidian coastal cities. This will greatly improve our trade with our holdings in southern Spain, and therefore our tax income to spend on our army.

The Romani will keep for the moment. They will take Taras, but will then turn north to fight the hostile Gauls in northern Italy. We will benefit from delay far more than they will. Build the economy, deal with our minor enemies, and delay a major conflict with Roma until Sicily is ours.

That is all I have to say, my lord."

[the man with no name]

Mago stands to address the Senate.

"My dear senators, I cannot resist this overwhelming vote. However I would appreciate some restraint in this endeavor."

Mago let suspicious smile slip,

"We will not be the ones to start a war. I will create an army to assault Rhegium, and I will send a message to Annibas to inform the Romans that this assault on Italy is an effort to assist them."

OOC: Stand by for an update tomorrow.

(hannibal stands)
Very,very smart. Ingenious i might say. And to you new senator, i thought the strategy was obvious, surprise attack on roma, then take rest of the penninsula, but also, do you doubt Carthage as a rich nation? (senate starts saying do you? Do you?) I think we are rich enough to fund a war against the Romani. I don't mean to bully you but I thought every council member believed in Carthage. Do you?

[johnhughthom]

Danel Hanno


Once again dear Hannibal you show your ignorance, we indeed are rich, but why are we rich, hmm? Trade with Gauls? Iberians? Numidians? No, Romans. We are rich due to the ships criss-crossing the sea between Carthage and Rome. So what you propose would need an increase in our military while we send our economy down the toilet. I am no military expert but I understand trade, attacking Rome due to a bit of espionage is ludicrous. We will end up at war with everyone on earth if we follow your ways, what will happen if I send one of my slaves into your home to check out your situation? Will you declare war on me?

Hanno sits, realising the argument is lost but wanting to make some of his fellows see sense.

[the man with no name]

Danel Hanno


Once again dear Hannibal you show your ignorance, we indeed are rich, but why are we rich, hmm? Trade with Gauls? Iberians? Numidians? No, Romans. We are rich due to the ships criss-crossing the sea between Carthage and Rome. So what you propose would need an increase in our military while we send our economy down the toilet. I am no military expert but I understand trade, attacking Rome due to a bit of espionage is ludicrous. We will end up at war with everyone on earth if we follow your ways, what will happen if I send one of my slaves into your home to check out your situation? Will you declare war on me?

Hanno sits, realising the argument is lost but wanting to make some of his fellows see sense.

STFU, jk

"Dude i again thought it was obvious that i was being sarcastic when i said "we go to war" as soon ASAP. I was thinking that we should save up for a war for five years or so. We should also send many diplomats around the great sea to make trading deals with our fellow human beings."

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

(hannibal stands)
And to you new senator, i thought the strategy was obvious, surprise attack on roma, then take rest of the penninsula, but also, do you doubt Carthage as a rich nation? (senate starts saying do you? Do you?) I think we are rich enough to fund a war against the Romani. I don't mean to bully you but I thought every council member believed in Carthage. Do you?

There's a difference between believing in Carthage through sure knowledge of ourselves and our enemies, and blind faith in the gods to bring us victory, which seems to be your belief. Assuming we will succeed at whatever we set out to do just because we are Carthaginians and Baal loves us, is folly. The gods help only those who help themselves.

Surprise attack on Roma itself? I see - a bold plan indeed, although treacherous and dishonourable!

A surprise attack means a direct assault, not a long seige - otherwise, it's not a surprise. A direct assault, against stone walls, could be costly - but could work provided the Romani only have a very small garrison in the city. And the assault would need to be very quick - so quick that the Romani would have no time to bring up their two field armies in defence.

To be that quick, it means attacking immediately after landing, without taking time to build heavy seige equipment. That means we would need spies to open the gates for us - a difficult task. Many spies would be needed to have a high chance of success. And Roma usually has very good security, so some of the spies may be caught and killed. If the spies fail, we'd have to go in with ladders. Ladders only work against undefended walls. For ladders to be sufficient, the Romani garrison will need to be very small and weak. That factor should be a necessary pre-requisite for this plan to go ahead.

We can't afford to damage the walls of Roma because we'd need them intact to defend and hold the city against the inevitable Romani counter-assault.

It's a workable plan - indeed the only workable plan for an IMMEDIATE war with Roma - although very risky if things go wrong! You are right, we can afford a war with the Romani - provided it is a SHORT war, and we take Roma right at the start, crippling the Romani economy! Then we can sack and plunder Roma, and use the proceeds to hire mercenaries to reinforce our relatively small army, and finish off the rest of the Romani before they can recover from the loss of their capital. If we fail, however, and lose our army in Italy, we will be in serious trouble, low on funds and low on troops!

We will gain a reputation for treachery regardless - the Romani are our allies, which is why they trust us to keep out of Italy, and don't have a strong navy. If we betray our alliance with Roma, none of our other allies will trust us again, and we could soon face war with the Lusotanns and the Egyptians.

I am opposed to this treacherous plan. It is not an honourable path. It could work, but only if everything goes according to plan. It's an 'all or nothing' gamble - and as a merchant I suppose I am instinctively opposed to such risky gambles, especially since it's the future of Carthage we are gambling with.

What do the other soldiers here think of this plan?

[the man with no name]

There's a difference between believing in Carthage through sure knowledge of ourselves and our enemies, and blind faith in the gods to bring us victory, which seems to be your belief. Assuming we will succeed at whatever we set out to do just because we are Carthaginians and Baal loves us, is folly. The gods help only those who help themselves.

Surprise attack on Roma itself? I see - a bold plan indeed, although treacherous and dishonourable!

A surprise attack means a direct assault, not a long seige - otherwise, it's not a surprise. A direct assault, against stone walls, could be costly - but could work provided the Romani only have a very small garrison in the city. And the assault would need to be very quick - so quick that the Romani would have no time to bring up their two field armies in defence.

To be that quick, it means attacking immediately after landing, without taking time to build heavy seige equipment. That means we would need spies to open the gates for us - a difficult task. Many spies would be needed to have a high chance of success. And Roma usually has very good security, so some of the spies may be caught and killed. If the spies fail, we'd have to go in with ladders. Ladders only work against undefended walls. For ladders to be sufficient, the Romani garrison will need to be very small and weak. That factor should be a necessary pre-requisite for this plan to go ahead.

We can't afford to damage the walls of Roma because we'd need them intact to defend and hold the city against the inevitable Romani counter-assault.

It's a workable plan - indeed the only workable plan for an IMMEDIATE war with Roma - although very risky if things go wrong! You are right, we can afford a war with the Romani - provided it is a SHORT war, and we take Roma right at the start, crippling the Romani economy! Then we can sack and plunder Roma, and use the proceeds to hire mercenaries to reinforce our relatively small army, and finish off the rest of the Romani before they can recover from the loss of their capital. If we fail, however, and lose our army in Italy, we will be in serious trouble, low on funds and low on troops!

We will gain a reputation for treachery regardless - the Romani are our allies, which is why they trust us to keep out of Italy, and don't have a strong navy. If we betray our alliance with Roma, none of our other allies will trust us again, and we could soon face war with the Lusotanns and the Egyptians.

I am opposed to this treacherous plan. It is not an honourable path. It could work, but only if everything goes according to plan. It's an 'all or nothing' gamble - and as a merchant I suppose I am instinctively opposed to such risky gambles, especially since it's the future of Carthage we are gambling with.

What do the other soldiers here think of this plan?

"you must realize that i implied that we trust in our coffers and our success. I also suggest we send about 6-7 good units to take the city and alot of levies to just help us make siege towers. I belive that we can wait one season"