Rubicon [Concluded]

[Andres]

You said "I think duck is either mafia or a consul" based on the detective result. I disagree that the results will show anything--TinCow has stated that they only show faction:

AggonyDuck claimed that his first investigation revealed more than just the faction the person who he investigated belongs to. I'm not going to name that person, but I strongly advice this person to be protected next night.

Duck claimed to me that he got a special one time ability to investigate alone for one night and he "discovered" a role.

An ordinary Senator wouldn't discover a role. Indeed, investigations by ordinary Senators reveal just the faction.

The two investigation results me and Beskar got were both almost identical. The one I got tonight, after investigating with Duck, was slightly different, but nothing ambiguous whatsoever. I'm now convinced that investigating is a useless activity for ordinary Senators; unless you want to go for a Populares/Optimates only victory.

AggonyDuck is no ordinary Senator. The information may be provided by Caesar, but I don't see no reason not to lynch an as good as confirmed scumbag.

Vote : AggonyDuck

[AggonyDuck]

Since the Night kills, I will confirm who I suspected was my killer due to various evidence from it.



I messaged Sasaki as a test, I had a theory that AggonyDuck was in fact a Pomp. Sasaki also messaged me wanting protection for him. I later messaged Sasaki that I believe AggonyDuck was a Pomp, which Caesar apparently revealed tonight. Sasaki never replied to this message and I ended up deader than a dodo.

With this, I suspect Sasaki of also being a Pomp, especially since the protection message was on Night one.

As an added note, AggonyDuck also messaged me saying GeneralHankerchief is a praetor. Pompey just revealed him as an optimate. Make of that as you will.

Sigh, you truly are a fool. The men on that list are men that Pompey wants dead, not a list of optimates.

A have very strong reason to assume AggonyDuck is an Pompeians or a Consul.

After gathering some information, it appears there was an exception. While majority of the investigations had senators going to a party, his investigation revealed that he was hosting a party which his supporters attended.

As to the difference in my PM, it has to do with the fact that I'm a Rich Senator, capable of investigating alone once.

[AggonyDuck]

AggonyDuck claimed that his first investigation revealed more than just the faction the person who he investigated belongs to. I'm not going to name that person, but I strongly advice this person to be protected next night.

Duck claimed to me that he got a special one time ability to investigate alone for one night and he "discovered" a role.

An ordinary Senator wouldn't discover a role. Indeed, investigations by ordinary Senators reveal just the faction.

The two investigation results me and Beskar got were both almost identical. The one I got tonight, after investigating with Duck, was slightly different, but nothing ambiguous whatsoever. I'm now convinced that investigating is a useless activity for ordinary Senators; unless you want to go for a Populares/Optimates only victory.

AggonyDuck is no ordinary Senator. The information may be provided by Caesar, but I don't see no reason not to lynch an as good as confirmed scumbag.

Vote : AggonyDuck

You're actually turning on the guy who's investigating with you? Alright, better reveal all info I have now then as you've definately managed to draw attention to yourself as well and Beskar already revealed what I knew about GH.

Lets start with my Role PM:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.”
- Marcus Tullius Cicero

Publius Cornelius Lentulus Spinther (Spinther)
Senator
(Optimates Faction)

There are few family names in Rome as important as those of gens Cornelius, and you have proven that their influence has not faded over the ages. You began your cursus honorum as Aedile in 63 BC, followed by the Praetorship in 60 BC, and finally the glorious Consulship in 57 BC. Despite owing some great political debts to Gaius Julius Caesar, you have remained true to your patrician heritage and are a die-hard member of the Optimates.

The benefits of high office have not passed you by. As governor of Hispania Citerior in 59 BC, and Cilicia from 56 to 53 BC, you acted wisely and fairly, unlike most of your counterparts who sought only to enrich themselves. Instead of material wealth, you earned the esteem of many prosperous and influential Cilicians. While not Roman citizens, they can provide great services to you, their patron, if you ever have need of them.

Victory Conditions:
(1) Eliminate all Caesarians and Pompeians. You will be victorious even if you are dead if this goal is met.

OR

(2) Survive and eliminate all Populares Faction Members, including Caesarians.

Role Description:
Night Actions:
(1) With 1 other Senator, you can investigate one player per night. Successful investigations will show the target's faction.
(2) With 2 other Senators, you can attempt to protect one player per night. Any player you protect will be very difficult to kill that night.
(3) With 3 other Senators, you can attempt to kill one player per night.

Special Ability:
(1) Clientela: As a prominent Senator, you have spent a lifetime cultivating an expansive web of connections. All over Rome, men both high and low owe you great obligations. In this time of crisis, you have decided to call in one of your most valuable favors. One of your clients is well-placed inside the household of another Senator, and he will provide you with information. You may investigate alone once. The investigation will show the target's faction and whether the target was active, though not what they were doing.

Here are my three investigations, with factions crossed out:

Night 1:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You send a servant off with a message to your client inside GeneralHankerchief’s villa. Several hours later, the servant returns with a wax tablet inscribed by the client himself. He reports that GeneralHankerchief is firm in his support of the Roman faction and adds a note about unusual activity around the villa last night. Your client signs off with a message indicating that his debt to you is now repayed. You can expect no further aid from that source.

It never revealed a role, but it certainly did hint at one. GH confirmed my suspicions later on.

Night 2:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You send your servants off to watch Andres’ villa. Your men take up position in an alley from which they can watch the main entrance. Foot traffic is low during the night, which makes the arrival of several well-dressed plebians easy to spot. They must be political supporters of Andres, who is clearly a Roman.

Night 3:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You send your servants off to watch Shinseikhaan’s villa. Your men take up position in an alley from which they can watch the main entrance. Foot traffic is low during the night, which makes the arrival of several well-dressed patricians easy to spot. They must be political supporters of Shinseikhaan, who is clearly a Roman.

[Andres]

You're actually turning on the guy who's investigating with you? Alright, better reveal all info I have now then as you've definately managed to draw attention to yourself as well and Beskar already revealed what I knew about GH.

The fact that we investigated together last night says nothing about your innocence or guilt.

Also, in your first pm you presented yourself to me, saying you knew that both GH and I are innocent. As has been said before, investigations by ordinary Senators don't reveal guilt nor innocence. Why did you say you knew I was innocent? Why the need to say that? And you also wanted to "form a network of innocent Senators", insinuating that our investigations would reveal guilt or innocence. Investigations only reveal faction. Why are you so interested in discovering which faction people belong to?

Sorry, Duck, but I don't trust you anymore.

Yes, Caesar's propaganda may be just that, propaganda, but it's also another element that points to your guilt. This is a game where mafia hunts down townies and other mafia.

I, for one, don't see any particular reason to refuse to take out a mafioso today.

[AggonyDuck]

The fact that we investigated together last night says nothing about your innocence or guilt.

Also, in your first pm you presented yourself to me, saying you knew that both GH and I are innocent. As has been said before, investigations by ordinary Senators don't reveal guilt nor innocence. Why did you say you knew I was innocent? Why the need to say that? And you also wanted to "form a network of innocent Senators", insinuating that our investigations would reveal guilt or innocence. Investigations only reveal faction. Why are you so interested in discovering which faction people belong to?

Because I believed that there were four factions, not two. How do you think I should had known that my investigations were worthless, especially in light of the fact that my first investigation (the Clientela) did reveal activity as well?

I also believe that the mafia need little help in investigations as it is likely, based on the messages from the Tyrants, that they have considerable investigative powers.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Wait a minute. Before everyone cries for Ducky's head, I'd like to know if anybody else is the "Rich Senator" role he is claiming. If this is the case, then please do so.

[Andres]

I also believe that the mafia need little help in investigations as it is likely, based on the messages from the Tyrants, that they have considerable investigative powers.

The Tyrant Caesar named you as a Pompeian...

[AggonyDuck]

Also lets assume that legates are the ones doing the killing. How can I be a legate when I have been investigating with someone else on two nights, successfully? If you have any doubts about my allegiance, I'm willing to ensure that I am tied up in a senator group each night doing something, preferably protecting, thus stopping me from pursuing any other activities.

Anyway I'm disappointed by the fact that you're so willingly following the suggestions of Caesar. He has been posting investigated Optimates three times now. The first was Don Corleone, followed by me, Jolt and the Flax. Strangely enough this time he decided to accuse me of being a lackey of Pompey. Why did he not say that immediately, but actually waited a night to make these accusations? I think it could be that their investigations are imperfect and very similar to my first investigation, that revealed both faction and if activity occurred, not necessarily what the activity was.

I had hoped to save Rome from both Tyrants, but it seems inevitable that we will plunge into a civil war like the Tyrants wish as I have thoroughly misunderstood the workings of this senate.


TinCow: Why are the senators abilities geared towards fighting a sanguine civil war and not to save Rome from rape and murder?

[AggonyDuck]

The Tyrant Caesar named you as a Pompeian...

And he is lying his guts off. I'm an Optimate, but first and foremost a true Roman, who would rather die than to see his fair Republic be ruined by these greedy ambitious men. Well it seems I will atleast be granted that wish.

[Ignoramus]

The person who persuaded Andres was obviously Cato the Younger(see link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Younger). Cato was middle-aged at the time, and the reference to Stoic philosophy gives it away.

The person who persuaded spL1tp3r50naL1ty appears to be Cicero. His fine oratory skills and older age indicate this.

Both of them were Optimates, and navarro was of the Populares.

I'd say that Cicero and Cato were working together, and I think we can judge that pevergreen was Optimates.

Three of the senators attacked voted for navarro, and Andres was mentioned in Pompey's letter, but then attacked in the evening. Is this relevant? Andres also had protection from other senators, thus preventing his death.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I almost believe AggonyDuck, but for now,
Vote: AggonyDuck

[AggonyDuck]

Andres care to explain why you consider Caesars word to be more trustworthy than mine, especially when I've backed my claims by revealing all that I am and know?


TinCow, a question about game mechanics, if Caesar or Pompey can investigate (say three times a night), can they participate in town group investigations so that it counts as one of the three investigations?

[Ignoramus]

The more I look at AgonyDuck's reveal, the more I feel it is genuine. It's very hard to make up a role, especially when you don't find out dead people's roles.

Judging from my role PM, AD's role PM looks the real deal.

[AggonyDuck]

Well I can't shake of the feeling of this being an elaborate ploy. Thus,

Vote: Andres

[everyone]

I cannot come up with a logical conclusion, or at least some identification of who's an ally or enemy from what I read from the whole thread.

vote: abstain

[TinCow]

TinCow: Why are the senators abilities geared towards fighting a sanguine civil war and not to save Rome from rape and murder?

"Such is the nature of crowds: either they are humble and servile or arrogant and dominating. They are incapable of making moderate use of freedom, which is the middle course, or of keeping it."
- Titus Livius

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

so true, of course this does make our job unreasonably hard.

[TinCow]

TinCow, a question about game mechanics, if Caesar or Pompey can investigate (say three times a night), can they participate in town group investigations so that it counts as one of the three investigations?

No player may do more than 1 night action per night. There are no exceptions to this rule.

[TinCow]

so true, of course this does make our job unreasonably hard.

"I attempt an arduous task; but there is no worth in that which is not a difficult achievement."
- Publius Ovidius Naso

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

I should have seen that coming....

[AggonyDuck]

No player may do more than 1 night action per night. There are no exceptions to this rule.

Hmmm, interesting. So, essentially to survive this and minimize casualties, we need to get the whole town doing nighttime activities, namely investigating as townies, because that will force the Caesarians and Pompeians to either investigate with us or choose not to and have an investigation fail as a result, which could point us in the right direction.

In the light of that and seeing as Andres has been investigating all the time, I'm having a hard time justifying my vote for him.

Unvote: Andres
Vote: Abstain

[Andres]

Andres care to explain why you consider Caesars word to be more trustworthy than mine, especially when I've backed my claims by revealing all that I am and know?

It's not Caesars word alone.

a) First, it's the way how you approached me:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You send your servants off to watch Andres’ villa. Your men take up position in an alley from which they can watch the main entrance. Foot traffic is low during the night, which makes the arrival of several well-dressed plebians easy to spot. They must be political supporters of Andres, who is clearly a snip

Ave, fellow Roman!

I am Publius Cornelius Lentulus Spinther, a rich senator of the Optimate faction. I am trying to gather a group of cleared innocents to discover and eliminate the Agents of both tyrants. I used my one time special ability of investigating alone on snip , finding out that he was of the snip faction. This night we investigated you together and found out you were a snip.

We need your help to continue our investigations and find out those who would wish to bring ruin and tyranny upon our great Republic. One thing is sure; we can not sit idly by while the Tyrants murder us in our sleep. Do not hesitate to ask for further proof or any question that might be troubling you. We will give you any answer that you require.

Yours,
Spinther

You wanted to form a "group of innocents" while investigations only reveal faction. You also told me your faction and the faction of the one you investigated.

b) later, you kept insisting on doing investigations:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ok. I investigated Duck (N1) and C (N2) together with Beskar.

Results on both were similar, nothing special in it.

C contacted me to ask me if I wanted to vig kill pevergreen together with him, A and B. B claimed that he already has a night activity planned.

I'm willing to take part in a vig hit on pevergreen.

Alternatively, we can go for two investigations or one investigation and one protection.

I'm more inclined to off pever. Two reasons: a) he seems scummy and the vote switches saving him will focus attention on him next round; better to take out a possible suspect now instead of wasting a round of discussion about pever; b) ok, I'll admit: killing is more exciting than a boring investigation or protection.

What say you?

A.

P.S.: I snipped parts of Duck's pm to me. Knowing the faction of more than one Senator might be too much of a temptation for some of us (looks at C ).

I would prefer investigations to increase the number of confirmed innocents, because more cleared senators means greater investigative powers as well. If we can investigate two more tonight, we can hopefully already investigate three the follow night, allowing our organisation to grow with proven true Romans. The more we grow, the more we can achieve as well. So far the senators cleared by investigation I know of are: Duck, C, Andres and snip.

But I will participate in a vig kill if the rest of you will do so, so that we have the numbers needed.

Ducky

c) C then proposed to us to do a protection, yet again you wanted to investigate:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ok guys, if we're going to do a vig kill on pevergreen, then we must decide now, so that everybody gets a chance to send in his orders.

A.

I think a kill on pever would be good for tonight. For starters, it gives us all the chance to trust each other, as this is a rather larger operation than what we've done in the past.

I have a group of 4 doing a kill which I assume will go through (all got read receipts), snip and me are part of it. Maybe snip, duck and andres can do a protect?

C

Andres want to investigate someone with me? How about YLC or Ichigo?

d) Then I told you investigation doesn't teach us anything about innocent or guilty, to which you replied:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

C claims investigating only reveals which faction a player belongs to. You mentioned something about a special ability you used when investigating snip. Does this mean you can see more when investigating?

If not, then protecting seems more useful to me. Ichigo suggested having a role, so he's a possible mafia target. We could protect him together with snip.

A.

"You send a servant off with a message to your client inside snip’s villa. Several hours later, the servant returns with a wax tablet inscribed by the client himself. He reports that snip is firm in his support of the Populares faction and adds a note about unusual activity around the villa last night. Your client signs off with a message indicating that his debt to you is now repayed. You can expect no further aid from that source."

Investigating reveals the faction and unusual activity, which in snip's case is being a Praetor. My ability only allowed me to investigate alone once, but that was the extent of it. He doesn't need our aid in protecting someone, so we might as well investigate someone together.

Anyway, who do you suggest that we investigate?

Special Ability:
(1) Clientela: As a prominent Senator, you have spent a lifetime cultivating an expansive web of connections. All over Rome, men both high and low owe you great obligations. In this time of crisis, you have decided to call in one of your most valuable favors. One of your clients is well-placed inside the household of another Senator, and he will provide you with information. You may investigate alone once. The investigation will show the target's faction and whether the target was active, though not what they were doing.

Now tell me, how does a "note about unusual activity" brings you tothe conclusion that "snip" is a Praetor?

Our latest investigaton was slighthly different than the one I got on C and you, yet it still only said the faction, which leads me to believe that investigating is useless for a Senator.

How comes you get more info, seeing as you claim to be just a Senator?

[Ignoramus]

I think we're barking up the wrong tree with AgonyDuck.

First of all, it is extremely easy for Caesar to claim AgonyDuck is Caecilius Metellus Scipio. The real Scipio would not be stupid enough to contradict the letter, but rather stay undercover and relatively quiet. AgonyDuck may be Scipio, but I doubt it. It's just too convenient for Caesar's faction.

Secondly, he is the only person who has revealed publicly. That is an extremely risky move. As the role he claims is not a major role, it is quite possible for the real Publius Cornelius Lentulus Spinthe to object and prove AgonyDuck is lying. The reveal looks genuine, and I know it's not easy to fake roles based on historical characters.

I'm growing more suspicious of Andres. I sent him a PM informing him who I was and offering to help him, and since I've sent it he has found the time to post against AgonyDuck, but I have not received even a brief note back from him. Why would he do that, seeing I can switch sides?
For the moment,

Vote Abstain

[AggonyDuck]

Alright, this is my take on the matter:

This was my special ability, which I used on night I, thinking that we actually had four factions instead of two:

Special Ability:
(1) Clientela: As a prominent Senator, you have spent a lifetime cultivating an expansive web of connections. All over Rome, men both high and low owe you great obligations. In this time of crisis, you have decided to call in one of your most valuable favors. One of your clients is well-placed inside the household of another Senator, and he will provide you with information. You may investigate alone once. The investigation will show the target's faction and whether the target was active, though not what they were doing.

As you can see, my one time investigation was a bit different from the normal investigation available to senator groups, which escaped me at the time. I thought senator investigations were as powerful.

This is the GH investigation:

You send a servant off with a message to your client inside GeneralHankerchief’s villa. Several hours later, the servant returns with a wax tablet inscribed by the client himself. He reports that GeneralHankerchief is firm in his support of the Roman faction and adds a note about unusual activity around the villa last night. Your client signs off with a message indicating that his debt to you is now repayed. You can expect no further aid from that source.

Notice the latter part, which wasn't present in my subsequent investigations. I contacted GH with the investigation result attached, to which he revealed that it was due to him being a Praetor. That is also the reason why I wanted to investigate tonight, as GH was able to protect someone by himself, so he did not need our help and meant that we might as well do an investigation.

[Andres]

Igno, first things first. Will reply to you later.

Btw, as I told Beskar, I don't trust anyone who sponteanously tells me his faction in private. And you telling me that you can switch sides, is particularly interesting Igno. Looking for an ally to go for victory condition (2)?

[Andres]

Ok Duck. Fair enough.

Unvote ; Vote : Ignoramus

[Ignoramus]

I was not particularly looking for an Optimates/Populares victory, but if I happened to reveal accidently to a Caesarian or Pompeian, then I could switch to save my bacon.

I figured you weren't part of Caesar's or Pompey's party, seeing you got attacked(I though you were a consul or praetor). So I decided to risk it and reveal to you.

[Ignoramus]

Fo everyone to see, here is my role pm:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“Treat your friend as if he might become an enemy.”
- Publilius Syrus

Tiberius Claudius Nero (Tiberius Nero)
Senator
(Optimates Faction)

The gens Claudius are nearly as old as the Republic itself, and you are a prime example of their aristocratic heritage. Your father was an ally of Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus and took a strong stand against Lucius Sergius Catilina’s failed Populares uprising. Everything you have been taught, and everything that you are, is a conservative and an Optimates in the finest traditions of Old Rome. Yet, you have always admired Gaius Julius Caesar. The man is charismatic and friendly to those who would be his friends, including you. More than once has he extended a kind word when it was unnecessary, or voiced support for you in the Senate when it was of no benefit to him. You know that there would be worse things in the world than Caesar as Dictator.

Should you wish it, you could cross over to the Populares at any time; Caesar’s blessing would surely be enough to convince all of his followers to accept you. Then again, you could also aid the dying Republic. There are few in Rome who possess your unique political flexibility, and it will allow you the freedom to chart your own course, going wherever the winds of fortune take you.

Victory Conditions:
(1) Eliminate all Caesarians and Pompeians. You will be victorious even if you are dead if this goal is met.

OR

(2) Survive and eliminate all Populares Faction Members, including Caesarians.

Role Description:
Night Actions:
(1) With 1 other Senator, you can investigate one player per night. Successful investigations will show the target's faction.
(2) With 2 other Senators, you can attempt to protect one player per night. Any player you protect will be very difficult to kill that night.
(3) With 3 other Senators, you can attempt to kill one player per night.

Special Ability:
(1) Damnatio Memoriae: Despite your long-standing ties to the Optimates, there has always been a part of you that has sympathized with the ideals of the Populares. Unlike most Senators, you are capable of crossing over to the other side and convincing them that the shift was sincere. Of course, such an action would only be believable once. You can switch your allegiance to the Populares at any time, but you cannot switch back. This will permanently change your role and victory conditions to those of a Populares Senator.

[AggonyDuck]

I think we're currently barking at all the wrong trees. Perhaps this might be the time to look at the kills of this night.

pevergreen was killed and the write up mentions four different parties, meaning it was propably a senator group kill.

Glenn was killed by gladii-armed intruders and only one party is mentioned, so I reckon this was tyrant kill.

Ichigo survived a kill attempt, without outside assistance, so this either means that he was protected by himself or someone attempted a senator group kill on him without the necessary numbers.

Andres survived a kill attempt, with outside protection, I reckon this was the other tyrant kill.


I'm curious what Ichigo's take is on his murder attempt as he seems awfully calm and composed in that write up.

[AggonyDuck]

I'm also curious what Chaotix's night time action was, so speak up and I'll withdraw this vote.

Unvote, Vote: Chaotix