OK then.....MPs expensives....

[Louis VI the Fat]

Blimey if it carries on like this there will only be a choice of the greens or the BNP. Neither of which is palatable. So who is there left to vote for on the 4th? I want to exercise my civic duty but all these rascals have effectively taken away my vote. I'm seriously beginning to despise the lot of them.

If I were the Spirit of Britain, I'd do two things:

Simplify and limit the expenses system for MP's.

Get a new British press. Enough of this continual whipping the public into frenzied hysteria. Into mass outrages. What does it all lead to? To nine-year old boys being tried like adults. To beatification of kindergarten teachers with all the public merits of Paris Hilton if they marry right and die young in a car accident in Paris. To the widely held misconception that Britain's entire political clas is composed of liars, cheats and scum.

Once the UK was admired for its capacity for sober reflection. For moderation in public debate.

[Furunculus]

i give you some quotes from walter bagehot:

"An element of exaggeration clings to the popular judgment: great vices are made greater, great virtues greater also; interesting incidents are made more interesting, softer legends more soft."

"Dullness in matters of government is a good sign, and not a bad one - in particular, dullness in parliamentary government is a test of its excellence, an indication of its success. "

[Banquo's Ghost]

Once the UK was admired for its capacity for sober reflection. For moderation in public debate.

Yes, but that was when gentlemen ran the country.

When trade is placed into power, one ends up with mercantile vices.

[rory_20_uk]

When the Japanese monarchy were placed back into power they were given sufficient monies so they would be above mercantile matters.

Of course there are a few people who do genuinely put others before themselves, but more usually one gets socialists like the ex-speaker who are after all they can get.

To be a politician is a career that one enters as a political advisor and moves up into power. It used to be either something to do after a career elsewhere or something for the landed gentry. Sure, both these other groups being a whole list of other problems, but as the reason for getting the place wasn't to amass money this is not usually such a problem.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Sounds flashy but the double standard is there, nobody would have given a crap had it been used to further us the EU. He used EU-money to campaign against the machine and pays the price. I am terribly dissapointed in ukip and it's members, glad we have our goldenboy, doesn't need to campaign the EU including the ukip does it for him.

Louis, it is the same money. The only difference between the money that the EU uses to campaign for the goals it has and what Nigel Farage uses for his is the purpose behind it.

If the government is using taxes to fund the party that it finds most favourable, what do we call that?

[Louis VI the Fat]

The Guardian runs a great article today. It touches on several issues that I've summat hinted at in these expenses/corruption threads, yet have been blisteringly incapable of either expressing or understanding well:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...s-banks-reform

[InsaneApache]

It's a good article. I sometines like to read Monbiot, when he writes like this it's almost a pleasure.

I remember when I was a bairn watching some famine or other in Bangladesh asking my grandad why they were so poor. His reply was that the British Empire and stolen all of their wealth. I'd asked him because he spent over a decade on the sub-continent in the army. Of course at that age I'd imagined ships full of gold and rubys etc. sailing back to blighty. As I got older I realised it was the exploitation that sucked them dry, not lack of treasure. The Brits saw what had happened to the Spanish and the debasing of it's currency with all that gold sloshing about. They not only saw but came up with a better wheeze altogether.

Not sure how this fits in with expensive MPs though. :)

[rory_20_uk]

Living on a floodplain had nothing to do with it then?
Self Rule by the Indians was a massive success pre and post British rule with the land almost a Utopia? No poverty no there, eh?
Just took, took, took. Didn't do anything whatsoever for the area.
European ships just happened to find masses of people on the Shores of West Africa. The locals had nothing to do with the trade.
To turn matters on their head, the UK's infrastructure was ruined as the markets were flooded with cheaper imports in an uncontrolled manner; Germany did not have this Empire and so did not collapse in a similar manner.

[KukriKhan]

It's a good article. I sometines like to read Monbiot, when he writes like this it's almost a pleasure.

I remember when I was a bairn watching some famine or other in Bangladesh asking my grandad why they were so poor. His reply was that the British Empire and stolen all of their wealth. I'd asked him because he spent over a decade on the sub-continent in the army. Of course at that age I'd imagined ships full of gold and rubys etc. sailing back to blighty. As I got older I realised it was the exploitation that sucked them dry, not lack of treasure. The Brits saw what had happened to the Spanish and the debasing of it's currency with all that gold sloshing about. They not only saw but came up with a better wheeze altogether.

Not sure how this fits in with expensive MPs though. :)

"Old sins making long shadows". Monbiot asks: "Why is it different?", and compiles a longish list of scandals, and how they were survived by the forced labour & treasure exchange with colonies and ex-colonies, and later, investment in drugs trades - and that those economic crutches are no longer available, therefore the doddering old UK, who should have withered away 100 years ago, will now fall on his face in the gutter - because yet another politics scandal has hit.

His unspoken underlying assumption is: the Brits are not up to the challenge, as they've been shielded from real hardship (as experienced by their 3rd world victims) for so long.

Rubbish. The sky is not falling, and the Brits are not gonna all just curl up and die. They'll find their way through, as they always have, fix what's broken, suffer a bit, and come out the other side stronger, and more self-aware and self-reliant than before. Don't let a perfectly good crisis go to waste. :)

[Furunculus]

it was an interesting article, which very rarely can i ever say for him, but i agree with Kukri fundamentally.

we'll do ok.

[rory_20_uk]

The Guardian would like nothing more than the destruction of the Western World, and appears to gloat at anything that appears to make this more likely. If there is a possibility the UK will disintegrate that is not only a good thing, but is self inflicted (debts of post WW2 never got mentioned) and well deserved.

I try to find a paper that has some sort of editorial balance. Articles such as this are the main reason why I don't bother with the telegraph, the Guardian, or any of the tabloid papers as all are far more focused at pushing their agenda than anything resembling the news.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Not sure how this fits in with expensive MPs though. :)

The article is relevant because it touches on:

-Why, of all the scandals that have plagued Westminster in recent years, it should be this relatively small beer that leads to a crisis.
-The organisation of plunder in the UK.
-Corruption as the abuse, or even plain use, of public power for private gain.
-A theory of everything. By combining several events, connecting everything with everybody and applying a sinister tone, the article sounds mighty impressive upon first reading and this in turn makes me look smart for posting it thereby giving the impression of great insight when there is actually none.

-In Italy, garbage rots in the streets of Naples for months, because the camorra wants more money to collect it. In Sicily, protection money is still paid to the mafia. The government is powerless.
In the UK, the City can plunder Britain indefinately. Taxes are evaded in tax havens. Shoud their schemes fail, the tax payer will bleed, not the City.
However different both systems, the answer to why their corruption can carry on is the same for Italy and the UK. Just what the answer is, I do not know exactly. (Not 42)
I must figure the answer out and the article has given me new food for thought.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The Fall from the House of Ussher.

Sorry, but the opportunity was too good to miss.

[InsaneApache]

I see that the commons has released Mps expenses. Except they havn't have they? Reminiscent of Pravda the whole bloody lot has been 'reducted' by a bloody great big permanent marker pen. I always thought that politicians were shifty bumwipes but it's worse than that. They are moronic.

Whoever thought that releasing this drivel to the public was a good idea had obviously spent too much time on nurse Ratchetts' ward. To think that these people pass laws for the rest of us is.....is, (I'm looking for the right word that won't get me a mention in the mods despatches ) well it's bumcheekery at it's finest.

Election now!

[Furunculus]

just provided more grist for the Telegraph mill by allowing them to compare what MP's wanted to hide against the full shooting-match as leaked to the Telegraph.

you thought last month was embarrassing!

[InsaneApache]

Recent precedent is a wonderful tool for enabling us to learn from our mistakes and so avoid repeating them, but the converse is that its absence will inevitably lead now and again to unforeseeable embarrassment.

Take this business of MPs renting out flats they own, in several cases to each other, while reclaiming the rent they pay on properties they lease. Technically, this breaches no rules, which is spiffing. One might point out that calling a policeman a pleb equally breaks no formal rule, although it may do little for the career prospects of anyone allegedly overheard saying it. Appearances can be at least as important as the rigorous observation of the rule book, in other words, and this does not look pretty.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...hey-claim.html

Cheating, thieving bastards are at it again!

They wonder why we loath them so much.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Excellent thread necromancy - I don't want to be tart but Bercow is another Labour-anointed Speaker.

Just abolish expenses - I'd rather be ruled by the rich than thieving "common" men who use politics to make themselves rich. The end result is the same, so why involve the tax-payer?

[InsaneApache]

Mr. Denis Matyjaszek seems to be in a spot of bother.

Thieving bastard.

[Ja'chyra]

Why don't we just give them mess rooms in Army barracks in London, then they can Pay as You Dine the same as the Army, it's a win win for everyone, they get a bed and some good food, we save a fortune. Security costs go down as Army camps are already guarded, they get a dose of realism, and best of all the GSM can stop them from getting involved in drunken brawls.

[InsaneApache]

Sounds like a good idea. Except I'd just put the lot in gaol.

Former Labour minister Denis MacShane is facing suspension from the Commons for 12-months.

A Parliamentary committee found he had submitted 19 false invoices which were "plainly intended to deceive" Parliament's expenses authority.

The committee said it was the "gravest case" which has come to them for adjudication.

Mr MacShane, who has been suspended from the Labour Party, said he was "shocked and saddened" by the move.

The MP for Rotherham had been suspended from the Labour party while police investigated his expenses claims, but he had the whip reinstated when the criminal inquiry was dropped.

The committee's report described Mr MacShane's false claims as "far from what would be acceptable in any walk of life" and "fell far below the standards of integrity and probity expected of every member of the House".

The false invoices related to work Mr MacShane carried out in Europe and he was particularly criticised for his use of public money for European travel.

The Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards said the "real mischief" of Mr MacShane's actions was submitting invoices that bypassed the "checks and controls" of the House and "enabled Mr MacShane to spend public money as he thought fit".

In a statement on his website, Mr MacShane said: "Clearly I deeply regret that the way I chose to be reimbursed for costs related to my work in Europe and in combating anti-semitism, including being the prime minister's personal envoy, has been judged so harshly.

"I remain committed to work for progressive values, for Britain playing a full part in Europe, and for combating anti-semitism even though I can no longer undertake this work as a Labour MP.

"I am consulting family and friends as I consider my position and study the full implications of the report.

"I am obviously desperately sorry for any embarrassment I have caused my beloved Labour Party and its leader Ed Miliband whom I greatly admire."

Fraud, I think thats what they call it.