Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
Oh come on.Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Actually, forcing eveyrone else to use your preferred euphemisms makes you look Orwellian.
It's like using all sorts of different names for socialist, conservatives, liberals, etc. When they get silly enough, and they're used too much, it starts getting ridiculous and loony. All in good quantity, I say.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
Sometimes I would agree with you. But in this particular case, you're trying to win the argument by playing semantics.
Assume a baby is born on June 1st at 0100. If the doctor sticks a scalpel into the base of its skull at 0101, you'd agree with us that he killed the baby. But if he inserted the scalpel at 0059, you're arguing we should change the terminolgy to performed a procedure on a mass of tissue. Tuff is saying, no, he still killed. And now, to boot, you're claiming he's playing linguistics games because he won't adopt your euphimism.
The whole abortion issue turns on this very point. If you believe a fetus magically becomes a baby by popping out of the vagina, then you wouldn't use the term killed. But for those of us who believe no special physical transformation in the child happens pre-to-post birth, then the term "killed" is very apropos.
Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-03-2009 at 19:52.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
It actually wasn't an argument. It was simply me getting tired of word-swaps, the fact that people who change words like this all the time are seen as loonies, and, finally, because I had to use more time reading his posts, by figuring out whether he actually meant killing as in "abortion", or killing is in "killing"...
Also, there's the whole "being polite to others"-thingy. While I may not have anything against my sister(she's had an abortion) being called a killer, murderer or whatever, it may be a sore point with others. For someone who considers a 3-week old fetus a human being, you should certainly understand that such things can upset people.
Last edited by HoreTore; 06-03-2009 at 22:27.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
You appear to be speaking in circles. We should refrain from using the term "kill" because it might hurt the sensibilities of people who "made a choice to remove some extraneous tissue"? If all they did was "make a choice...", why would they have any sensibilities on the matter to offend? I'm sorry your sister went through such a horrific ideal, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my statements, just to avoid hurting her feelings, especially since I presume its an ordeal she chose with full knowledge of what she was doing.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to let you unilateraly define the vocabulary for the debate. Words matter. We view it as taking a human life, which is why we say kill. If that bothers you, I'm sorry. I don't use the word kill to poke a finger in your eye... if that was my intent, I would refer to you as pro-abortion, not the pro-choice tag you prefer. I find it mildly irritating when people refer to me as anti-choice, but such is their right.
And where did the 3 weeks come from? The good doctor was performing elective abortions in the 3rd trimester.
Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-03-2009 at 22:37.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
Read it again, Don. I didn't say "of people who", but I was referring to people with relatives(or friends I guess) who have had an abortion. And believe it or not, they exist! And they might not even be fond of abortion either! But, believe it or not, they might not enjoy having their close relative called a murderer every single day! Shocking!
Again, it's irrelevant really, but it's that "being polite to others"-thingy.
But again, as for myself, supporting abortion as I do, I could not care less. All my sister did was remove a lump of cells, and it was her choice.
It doesn't bother me any more than say, swapping "socialist" and "hippie", or "conservative" and "inbred" does. However, when repeated, it gets tiring and makes me think that the person who uses said terms consistently is just some loony retarded I won't consider paying any attention to. Which explains why I've only bothered to read half of TuffStuff's posts in this thread...
I actually prefer the term "pro-abortion". I've only used the term "pro-choice" because that's what you silly english-speakers use, in norwegian the term is abortion-supporter(roughly translated). The word "choice" is the property of the conservatives here, I don't think it's legal for us socialist heathens to use it...
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
At what point are the mass of cells a baby? When it can be born and survive with medical intervention?, When it can safely survive by itself without medical intervention or at the point of conception?Sometimes I would agree with you. But in this particular case, you're trying to win the argument by playing semantics.
Assume a baby is born on June 1st at 0100. If the doctor sticks a scalpel into the base of its skull at 0101, you'd agree with us that he killed the baby. But if he inserted the scalpel at 0059, you're arguing we should change the terminolgy to performed a procedure on a mass of tissue. Tuff is saying, no, he still killed. And now, to boot, you're claiming he's playing linguistics games because he won't adopt your euphimism.
Assume a couple conceive at June 1st at 0100. If the husband withdraws at 0101, you'd agree he was responsible for the conception. But if he withdrew at 0059 then the stomach/tissue/mouth is the new death camp as millions are denied their right to life.
That would be a big worry as Caesaren wouldn't be alive then by that definition...The whole abortion issue turns on this very point. If you believe a fetus magically becomes a baby by popping out of the vagina, then you wouldn't use the term killed. But for those of us who believe no special physical transformation in the child happens pre-to-post birth, then the term "killed" is very apropos.
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
I used to hold that one could put life at viability. After further study and reflection, I realized this was a fallacy. A 3 month old infant cannot exist on its own any more than a -3 month infant can. (Age 0 being the moment of birth).
I've come to hold a much stronger pro-life position over the years, especially with the birth of my daughters. I hold that life begins at the moment of conception, and that the only valid reason for intentionally reason for terminating a pregnancy is to protect the life or long-term physical health of the mother.
Your question is something of a non-sequiter, as you're asking about coitus interruptus, where no conception actually transpired. It has little to do with what we're discussing.
Luckily for me, I don't hold that definition. I DON'T hold that something magical transpires in one's trip through the birth canal, which is why I am so utterly opposed to 3rd trimester abortions particularly.That would be a big worry as Caesaren wouldn't be alive then by that definition...
Last edited by Don Corleone; 06-03-2009 at 23:10.
"A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.
"Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
Strike for the South
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
It is about timing and definitions. Your own quote wanted to lampoon the semantics around this debate. That post-natal abortion is defined murder while pre-natal is defined as a cell scraping. (Edit Note: I totally agree with your stance, on this part)
My own point is that is that the other end of the time scale conception. If conception is the moment a human being starts, does that make the avoidance of it some sort of tragic event? (Edit Note: But the logic of it does beget the other end of the scale, and I'm being tongue in cheek... or something in cheek)
=][=
IMDHO I think it is up to women to decide about abortion for themselves, just like guys get to decide about vasectomies.
When all us blokes are ready to have a group of women on the internet decide if our 'nads should be chopped off or not then we can have an equally weighted argument in deciding women's reproductive strategies.
Last edited by Papewaio; 06-04-2009 at 00:57. Reason: Clarity
Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
Pape for global overlord!!
Re: Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church
You know, that's just the thing. Most of us don't have any problem with a woman deciding her own reproductive health. The problem is that we believe that has crossed the line. It isn't about the woman any more - there's something else there now. So why should only women have the right to decide when they aren't the only ones being effected? Or, for that matter, the ones being effected the most?
The whole "women should decide" argument is a fallacy. If anything, we should have a plebiscite of fetuses and infants - but since that is impossible, it becomes a decision for everybody.
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